Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
Could you elaborate on what you’re implying.
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Umm, I think that's fairly obvious?
Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
okay so you’re implying that the answer to everyone’s suffering and story as it relates to chronic pain is the same?
someone who grows up in a dysfunctional family, who has no understanding of healthy or functioning relationships, who is avoidant, Who has no capacity to be vulnerable, who is nihilistic because their upbringing has made them jaded and questionable of humanity as a whole. Who thinks there’s no point to living because there’s nothing after death and that reality is just a torture fest. Whose internal monologue is full of self hatred and rumination of the past and terror at the future. You think merely digging into the past and attempting to address what’s contributing to both conscious and subconscious rage is enough for that person to a live a functioning life? Or are you implying that the cessation of that persons symptoms would make their life functioning?
Is there an element of rage there at absent caregivers who got the ball rolling in this mess? Of course. But this mess has spiraled into something much deeper than rage. There’s a fuck ton of grief, and loneliness and self hatred. There is a complete lack of meaningful relationships, hobbies, inner kindness, confidence. Those issues preceded chronic pain and absolutely played key roles in the generation of symptoms.
even Sarno himself said some people need additional psychotherapy
I was actually just hoping to have a conversation with you which is why I asked for clarification.
I’ll mention it here again, since you skipped so much of my post. Why do non human animals get mind body symptoms (look up stress cystitis in cats or stress colitis in dogs) and why do those symptoms respond to stress reduction? And why if this is just about repressed rage or anger, does the brain or mind allow itself to be killed via suicide?
I too was hoping for conversation. I was trying to get you to consider that maybe it's not as complicated. The fact that you were angry about me saying that I think is a clue that you should consider.
I never said nor did I mean that everyone suffering or story is the same. I'm suggesting that the solution to physical pain that is not from organic disease may be as simple as Sarno suggests.
Do I think that "merely digging into the past and attempting to address what’s contributing to both conscious and subconscious rage is enough for that person to a live a functioning life?" No. My understanding is that this forum is about alleviating physical pain, not helping resolve psychological issues or mental illness to help one live a fruitful life.
If you have issues beyond physical pain that's a different story.
I never said nor did I mean that everyone suffering or story is the same. I'm suggesting that the solution to physical pain that is not from organic disease may be as simple as Sarno suggests.
Do I think that "merely digging into the past and attempting to address what’s contributing to both conscious and subconscious rage is enough for that person to a live a functioning life?" No. My understanding is that this forum is about alleviating physical pain, not helping resolve psychological issues or mental illness to help one live a fruitful life.
If you have issues beyond physical pain that's a different story.
Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
Yes getting over debilitating life altering chronic symptoms is a barrier to living a functioning life. And the generation of symptoms for many has to due with overall dysfunction. That’s why so many people emphasize finding joy and meanings for living outside their pain.
Multiple, widespread severe symptoms don’t just occur in a vacuum. Of course these people (myself included) have issues beyond physical pain. Is this serious? This strikes me as such a lack of empathy.
Adam Coloretti (coach)
Well known member
I agree - for some there can be a delineation, but for a lot of people you can't divide and conquer. After all, the psychological issues are often what lead to the symptoms in the first place. Pure understanding and awareness that there's nothing structurally wrong can induce enough safety to turn symptoms off (I think in my case, 80% of recovery was down to knowing I was ok structurally, and 20% working on my emotions and journalling), but for others those numbers could be flipped.
Sometimes the waters are muddied because if I work on my emotions, and seeing my emotional triggers starts to grow my belief that nothing is wrong with me (as I see that I actually get symptoms when I'm nervous and not due to the firmness of the chair), then is my recovery down to the emotional work and improving psychologically or was it due to my increased belief there was nothing wrong (which was a byproduct of such emotional work)? They often work simultaneously (which is why my 80% 20% is a guess and my gut feel - I have no way of knowing that for sure).
Dr Sarno's work can explain the root cause of many of the psychological issues (I'm with him that repression is often at the heart of things - and that aligns with psychology and psychotherapy) and therefore can help address these
I'm not sure what you are looking for here and why you are trying to start a fight. I made a small throw away comment about maybe it IS that simple and you've felt a need to insist in great detail why that is not so. I think you should consider examining that feeling. Perhaps your TMS brain is afraid that if it is simple then it won't be able to do its "job" of keeping you distractedly ill?
I agree - for some there can be a delineation, but for a lot of people you can't divide and conquer. After all, the psychological issues are often what lead to the symptoms in the first place. Pure understanding and awareness that there's nothing structurally wrong can induce enough safety to turn symptoms off (I think in my case, 80% of recovery was down to knowing I was ok structurally, and 20% working on my emotions and journalling), but for others those numbers could be flipped.
Sometimes the waters are muddied because if I work on my emotions, and seeing my emotional triggers starts to grow my belief that nothing is wrong with me (as I see that I actually get symptoms when I'm nervous and not due to the firmness of the chair), then is my recovery down to the emotional work and improving psychologically or was it due to my increased belief there was nothing wrong (which was a byproduct of such emotional work)? They often work simultaneously (which is why my 80% 20% is a guess and my gut feel - I have no way of knowing that for sure).
Dr Sarno's work can explain the root cause of many of the psychological issues (I'm with him that repression is often at the heart of things - and that aligns with psychology and psychotherapy) and therefore can help address these
It's quite remarkable, isn't it, when you have some kind of confirmation that there is nothing structurally wrong with you (and that you are not dying)? My biggest experience with this was after a very bad virus right prior to COVID in December 2019. I had 3 weeks of acute symptoms and then I turned the corner, but it all went downhill from there. I felt awful, I lost my appetite, I had incredible (and weird) fears of various conditions, had no energy because I was only eating a few hundred calories a day. But I couldn't snap out of it. I finally had an ENT appointment about 2 and 1/2 months after the initial onset of the virus and the ENT said nothing was wrong. More specifically he said, "You FEEL worse than you ARE." I think some people would have taken offense to that but to me he validated that I did feel like shit, but I was OK. I almost immediately got my appetite back and while it still took another 3-4 months to get energy back and to my normal baseline, I was on the path to recovery. I owe it to the nice older doctor who retired shortly thereafter. If I had gone to a different, perhaps younger, doctor he or she likely would have said, "I can't find anything wrong with you so let's schedule a whole bunch of other tests to see if we can figure it out." Guess what would have happened when I got home with that kind of news................
For the record, I've since learned that there likely was a physical element in that viruses create cytokines which can also create anxiety or depression and physical discomfort. My Dad actually had a similar thing when he would get a bad cold. His doctors explained it as "being allergic to your immune system." What happens to a lot of people is that they get that and then they can't snap out of it. That's when it starts to transition to TMS.
Adam Coloretti (coach)
Well known member
Absolutely! My catastrophising (which was a large contributor to the symptoms) dropped by 80% once I truly knew I couldn't hurt myself further. Whilst we are all different emotionally and have different triggers, I think one thing we all share in common is that deep, evolutionary fear that comes with thinking something is wrong with the body. You can't not be afraid of that (it's hardwired for survival), so knowing nothing is wrong will always help (often dramatically).
So true. One thing I've been thinking about is how we as humans (or at least Americans) have this belief that our bodies are supposed to feel perfectly perfect at all times. As if we never are supposed to have a stomach ache or a muscle pain or feel very tired or a hundred of others things that EVERY PERSON feels and is perfectly normal.
It's as if we think our default is feeling wonderful, energetic, pain-free, lovely, good hair day, every day. I mean, maybe some people do? But it seems to me that we all live under this false assumption about how we are supposed to feel and then when we don't some of us spiral.
Adam Coloretti (coach)
Well known member
100% - It's the expectation.
Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
Some of you Sarno purists who thankfully had a quick recovery can be reductive and dogmatic.
Once becoming TMS aware recovery timelines run the gamut. What gets people over the hump runs the gamut. It’s not always a clean or ‘simple’ process. As I said in my op it’s frustrating that people like you want to simplify this whole process when reality is messier because the human condition is messy.
as if I haven’t read plenty of Sarno, extensively worked the emotional side on my own and in therapy. And what has moved the needle for me wasn’t it. You’re implying I’ve seen no progress booble, which is another thing Sarno purists do, this idea we’re missing *it*. This simple idea that’s just alluding us, that our brain is afraid of. It’s akin to psychological infantilization. And it can send people on a wild goose chase looking for something that isn’t there.
A little more tact in people’s words here is what I was looking to accomplish with this conversation. Especially in a forum where many people are in the lowest moment of their lives and some actively dealing with thoughts of suicide.
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Scott G
Well known member
It struck me in reading these last several posts that a person's first reaction to the whole concept / therapeutic world of TMS can also be very dependent upon:
a. If they first hear about it from another person; rather than the internet or some other media source.
b. The accuracy and overall tone of how that person presents the info.
I first heard about Dr. Sarno just over two years ago when a friend of mine was telling me about how is brother was 'miraculously cured of his horrible back pain by just reading a book', and recommended that maybe I should check it out. He proceeded to tell me about the methodology involved (he called it a form of 'self hypnosis' and 'mind over matter'), and then his own opinion (a massive placebo effect). He was skeptical, and thinks his brother is kooky anyway, lol.
Right away I placed Sarno and the book into the 'woo woo', magic crystals and 'feel-good vibes' category. However, I actually purchased it for Kindle on a whim at the start of that conversation because....why not?. By the end of that talk, however, I regretted buying it and never bothered to open it up.
Last Feb I finally read it. Then read it again.
I wasted two years of my life because of the preconceived notions that had been formulated. Only when things got desperate did I bother to crack it open. That's tale I've heard many times since starting this journey.
It's a shame I wasted two years, but at least I'm here now.
a. If they first hear about it from another person; rather than the internet or some other media source.
b. The accuracy and overall tone of how that person presents the info.
I first heard about Dr. Sarno just over two years ago when a friend of mine was telling me about how is brother was 'miraculously cured of his horrible back pain by just reading a book', and recommended that maybe I should check it out. He proceeded to tell me about the methodology involved (he called it a form of 'self hypnosis' and 'mind over matter'), and then his own opinion (a massive placebo effect). He was skeptical, and thinks his brother is kooky anyway, lol.
Right away I placed Sarno and the book into the 'woo woo', magic crystals and 'feel-good vibes' category. However, I actually purchased it for Kindle on a whim at the start of that conversation because....why not?. By the end of that talk, however, I regretted buying it and never bothered to open it up.
Last Feb I finally read it. Then read it again.
I wasted two years of my life because of the preconceived notions that had been formulated. Only when things got desperate did I bother to crack it open. That's tale I've heard many times since starting this journey.
It's a shame I wasted two years, but at least I'm here now.
As @JanAtheCPA taught me, sometimes a little "tough love" is helpful.
However if you are feeling suicidal, a word you mentioned more than once in this short conversation, then please get yourself help from those who are trained to guide you.A mind-body forum is not the place that can help you with those feelings. At best we can remind you that it will get better.
As for the general conversation, I think it's important to distinguish between a person's baseline versus aggravating physical ailments that pop in on top of their baseline.
Those of us who have energy deficits, systemic pains, et cetera, while I'm sure there is a mind-body connection, there is also a physical element where our bodies react in a more stormy way than others to the psychological. It's not like other people don't have similar psychological issues, they just have bodies that don't go into fight/flight mode as crazily as our do, for example. Maybe you can mind-body it all way but for me I think the key to happy, fulfilling life is working around them. Expecting perfection, even if it's achievable with enough work, I believe often ends up taking from your life, rather than enhancing it. Note, this is just me. I'm older now, and I managed to have a successful career, relationship, life, despite feeling "less than" physically much of the time. Had I chased feeling perfect I would not have.
The Sarno stuff helps keep some of that at bay and is useful for removing the aches and pains and other "extras" that come in on top of all of that.
I am sorry that my words triggered you. I was actually hoping my words would trigger you in a way that would stop you in your tracks from spiraling into the endless search for solutions. Like when you give a smack on the cheek to someone who is losing it. I said this before but from a TMS (original TMS) perspective, I think you should examine WHY you got upset when I said it might be easy. I'm pretty confident that if you explore that you will find some useful answers.
Your denial of "Sarno purists," in my estimation, is a function of your TMS. Remember, your TMS brain does not want you to get better. It thinks physical symptoms are protecting you (from those pesky emotions).
Maybe get a piece of paper and think/write about it?
If you're thinking right now, "Booble is a mean jerk and doesn't know anything" that too is your TMS brain. Do with all of this what you will. I think the answers are there if you are open to exploring them.
Ellen
Beloved Grand Eagle
I wasted two years of my life because of the preconceived notions that had been formulated. Only when things got desperate did I bother to crack it open. That's tale I've heard many times since starting this journey.
It's a shame I wasted two years, but at least I'm here now.
"When the student is ready, the teacher will come." I don't know who said that, but somebody smart. There were times when I heard about healing through MindBody means, but I wasn't ready to absorb it until it came in another form. That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with the previous forms, or something superior about the form it arrived in when I finally "got it".
What is simple for one person might not be simple for another, and it is not one size fits all.
Dr. Alan Abbass, an ISTDP psychiatrist, and Dr. Howard Schubiner wrote a book titled Hidden from View: A Clinician's Guide to Psychophysiologic Disorders. They used the term Psychophysiologic Disorders to refer to what Dr. Sarno called TMS and its equivalents. On page 2, they wrote that these disorders have a spectrum of causes: "Each patient with psychologic disorders, or PPD, presents with a unique combination of symptoms, histories of adverse life events, reactions to their symptoms, and current life situations. Because of this, PPD can be caused by anyting from more easily accessible behavioral, cognitive, and interpresonal factors to more deeply rooted unconscious emotional factors." Schubiner wrote the chapter on cognitive, behavioral, and interpersonal-factor treatments, including a technique he co-developed called Emotional Awareness and Expression. Abbass wrote the chapters on unconsious emotions, which go deeper than Sarno's focus on figuring out what you are angry about but didn't realize it.
Dr. Alan Abbass, an ISTDP psychiatrist, and Dr. Howard Schubiner wrote a book titled Hidden from View: A Clinician's Guide to Psychophysiologic Disorders. They used the term Psychophysiologic Disorders to refer to what Dr. Sarno called TMS and its equivalents. On page 2, they wrote that these disorders have a spectrum of causes: "Each patient with psychologic disorders, or PPD, presents with a unique combination of symptoms, histories of adverse life events, reactions to their symptoms, and current life situations. Because of this, PPD can be caused by anyting from more easily accessible behavioral, cognitive, and interpresonal factors to more deeply rooted unconscious emotional factors." Schubiner wrote the chapter on cognitive, behavioral, and interpersonal-factor treatments, including a technique he co-developed called Emotional Awareness and Expression. Abbass wrote the chapters on unconsious emotions, which go deeper than Sarno's focus on figuring out what you are angry about but didn't realize it.
Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
The condescension is so unbelievably palpable, I don’t know why I am getting myself started or even remotely upset about someone like you. I’m not suicidal, in fact I’m in the best place I’ve been mentally and physically. In fact I’d say I have virtually no symptoms today. I worked 9 hours in a physically demanding field yesterday after commuting 1 hour each way then immediately played high level volleyball for 3 hours , with essentially no pain or limitations. My above post was referencing where I was when starting down this TMS road and where I’ve been, to indicate that sometimes reality is a little more complicated than people like you want to make it out to be. At no point did I ever imply what my pain levels were or how I was currently doing mentally, although I’ve made more than a few comments and posts regarding my progress. You’re just assuming a bunch of shit.
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Wow, where did all of that come from? I was genuinely trying to help. I don't know you or your previous posts. I'm glad you are doing so well.
I don't think I said anything mean or condescending if I did I'm sorry.
Rabscuttle
Beloved Grand Eagle
What are you referring to here?
booble you projected a bunch of shit from your own recovery experience on to me, assumed a bunch of shit about my own health (“distractedly ill”).
But the moment I reveal I’m actually doing well, there’s no more unsolicited out of touch advice. No more infantilizing. I swear some of you sarno purists have just recovered with your egos totally intact and you think you overcoming chronic pain has granted you enlightenment or some shit. Is it a lack of empathy, or are you so far removed from your struggles that you’ve just forgotten what it’s like to navigate the bramble? Or is it that you just had a mild situation with a quick recovery and think it is the same for everyone ?
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I feel like I've been nothing but nice and yet you keep being cruel back to me. I think we should end it here because clearly we are miscommunicating.