Therapist suggestion

[Scott G]

I can’t thank you enough for this post. It’s so invaluable to hear from someone who actually has been to Dr. Stracks and Cormendi. I have gone ahead and confirmed my appointment, though I rescheduled it a few weeks later, at the beginning of June.

You confirmed a lot of of what I have been thinking. As I have muddled through numerous books, blogs, podcast, videos, they have all been very helpful, but at the same time I’m craving being able to talk to someone directly who is in the field, and a notable one at that, with medical background. I have been spending more and more time working on all the various strategies out there, but I’d like some help determining which ones are worth my time.

I appreciate you also explaining how they go about helping patients and the whole process involved. Can you tell me, what did you cover in your meeting with Dr. Stracks? Was it mainly him hearing your background, answering questions, and or him talking through a suggested plan?

I really liked the idea of sending along my medical records. I think those would be very important in determining my TMS. Is that something they request, or should I just send that along to them on my own?

I am quite sure many of my symptoms are TMS, but there are a few that I am looking for confirmation that they are TMS, or whether I should look into some other structural issue.

Thanks again for your help!

Hey Stracksstory, glad to answer your questions...!

The Start
He'll ask you what's going on, of course. What's your issue or issues. Right off the rip, he's going to want to make sure that you've eliminated any physical / structural problems that might be the cause of your symptoms. That's standard.

One of the first things he will ask is "What is it that you think I can do for you?" or "What is it you're hoping to get out of this treatment?" Something like that... These are the kinds of questions you aren't likely to get from regular docs, and seemed bizarre at first. This is one of the ways that he screens people to see if they are a good fit. If he honestly feels that you don't need his services or therapy, he's going to tell you that. Be honest, open, and direct. I don't know enough about you or your situation, but I didn't approach my meeting with him thinking I had any answers, really. Quite the opposite, it was very early in my healing journey and I said something to the effect that I was open to whatever he suggested. Right there, he could have loaded me up with all kinds of expensive appointments with him and/or his staff. He could have urged me to sign up for their online courses, etc. He did the opposite, mostly, lol. I got the sense that above all he wants to make sure that you're onboard of your own volition, and that you will be prepared to be the major decision-maker in your own recovery. That's VERY unlike many medical doctors - who usually don't give two sh*ts as to what you think or want.

If all you're looking for initially is a consultation for confirmation that your pain is neuroplastic (or not!), let him know up front.


Probing Questions
He will probably ask you which strategies / techniques you are currently trying. He seems to value detailed answers, and often asks probing or tough questions that are intended to somewhat challenge you - but not in a negative way. Do not take it personally; it's his way of really trying to understand who you are, what you're dealing with, etc. For instance, I mentioned a technique I had been using and he stopped me and asked "Why? Where did you hear about that technique? Why do you think it's working for you? What is it about that technique that you liked? How do you know it's working? How are you measuring success? etc etc. I was caught off-guard at first. Unlike many doctors I've met with, who ask the standard, basic questions, he's probably going to dig deeper.


Yourself
Be prepared to tell him in detail what you've been through and done so far. (This may be a recap; depending on what you send him in advance and if he has time to fully read and digest it...)

Every one of the points you've brought up about yourself in this thread, I would mention. Don't hold back. If you have doubts and fears, express those. Your past experience with panic attacks / anxiety will be very relevant. You should feel free to express any doubts you might have, or even mention some of the comments in this thread in which folks express doubts about the need to see a specialist - if you feel the same. Hell, even if you don't feel the same don't be afraid to mention it if you feel it's important for any reason.

If you're on any pain meds, mention those. Boobie's comment earlier about people's reluctance to get angry in these types of situations is well made. DO NOT be afraid to express any tough emotions or feelings. If you suddenly get into a rage, he's probably going to let you get it out, and then take some steps to lower your nervous system temp. lol. Here's a story related to this:

During the Q&A sessions Dr. Stracks will often ask for someone to volunteer for an exercise on some topic, or someone will just bring it up. He will start asking questions. The SECOND he senses you're going to respond with a soft, safe, blah answer he's going to keep coming back at you. He will do this politely, but firmly. He's trying to get you to really dig into your emotions and feelings. He's going to promote a safe environment where everyone's brains feel at ease, but he will dig.

Mention that you've been doing the course here at the TMS Wiki. He knows of the site and supports it... Tell him Scott says hello. lol.


Diagnosis? Nay!
In my first session he did not immediately diagnose me as having TMS, neuroplastic pain, etc. That was interesting to me and kind of disappointing because I was CRAVING a proper diagnosis, LOL. It's just another way for my personality (TMS personalities?) to try and take control of a situation. He did say that based on our interview, my MRI results, etc that he felt 99% certain that I did not have a structural problem. I asked him about this later during one of the Q&A sessions and he said something like "I don't like applying labels right away" or something to that effect. From what I gather, Dr. Schubiner's approach during a first session is similar. Dr. Stracks has since referred to my symptoms as neuroplastic. My take is that he's wanting to disarm you a bit. *shrug* not sure.


Game Plan Moving Forward
Dr. Stracks will probably suggest a general course of action, but don't expect some kind of detailed, step-by-step game plan. That can come later if you end up being a patient of his or one of the staff. My sense is that he doesn't want to rush into anything super detailed in terms of treatment. He will set you off in a good direction, however. If you feel you need more, tell him that during the session.


Therapy / Pain Coach
I've not gotten a sense from your posts as to where you are at with your anxiety. I don't have any sense of how much you feel you might need a therapist or pain coach.


Medical Records
Call the office and tell them you'd like to send some records to Dr. Stracks in advance of your appointment. They can give you an email address to use or set you up on the portal - which is the easiest and what I used - I think. lol.



Criticisms about Cormendi Health and Dr. Stracks
I really like Dr. Stracks and Cormendi. That doesn't mean I don't have issues. Here's some of my criticisms:

Academic
Dr. Stracks can sometimes come across as very academic. While most of what he says is easy to understand, sometimes he gets into an almost PhD level of conversation. There are times I wish he was more direct, but he is a fan of the socratic method - he's often going to answer your question by asking you a question. Some people don't mind that, but it can drive me bonkers, lol.

Cormeni Academy: Course Structure
I'm a member of the academy and really value the material, but it lacks the kind of step-by-step structure that most people would expect, and that is something that bugs me. For instance, should I watch this series of lectures first...or this one? There's kind of an order to it I guess, but barely.

Q&A Sessions
I find these generally excellent but, unlike other group learnings I've attended (like therapy or Curable sessions), Dr. Stracks seem sensitive when you offer advice to other participants in the session. Now, to be fair, with any group therapy type session you will generally be asked to always frame advice based on your own experience and not suggest that someone else do anything. Even when you follow that rule, he doesn't seem that receptive. I don't think it's an ego-thing, but might be? Not sure.


Last Thoughts
I hope your experience goes well! I really like Dr. Stracks and Cormendi, but I know two people who felt that his program was just not for them.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

 

[Stracksstory]

Hey Stracksstory, glad to answer your questions...!

The Start
He'll ask you what's going on, of course. What's your issue or issues. Right off the rip, he's going to want to make sure that you've eliminated any physical / structural problems that might be the cause of your symptoms. That's standard.

One of the first things he will ask is "What is it that you think I can do for you?" or "What is it you're hoping to get out of this treatment?" Something like that... These are the kinds of questions you aren't likely to get from regular docs, and seemed bizarre at first. This is one of the ways that he screens people to see if they are a good fit. If he honestly feels that you don't need his services or therapy, he's going to tell you that. Be honest, open, and direct. I don't know enough about you or your situation, but I didn't approach my meeting with him thinking I had any answers, really. Quite the opposite, it was very early in my healing journey and I said something to the effect that I was open to whatever he suggested. Right there, he could have loaded me up with all kinds of expensive appointments with him and/or his staff. He could have urged me to sign up for their online courses, etc. He did the opposite, mostly, lol. I got the sense that above all he wants to make sure that you're onboard of your own volition, and that you will be prepared to be the major decision-maker in your own recovery. That's VERY unlike many medical doctors - who usually don't give two sh*ts as to what you think or want.

If all you're looking for initially is a consultation for confirmation that your pain is neuroplastic (or not!), let him know up front.


Probing Questions
He will probably ask you which strategies / techniques you are currently trying. He seems to value detailed answers, and often asks probing or tough questions that are intended to somewhat challenge you - but not in a negative way. Do not take it personally; it's his way of really trying to understand who you are, what you're dealing with, etc. For instance, I mentioned a technique I had been using and he stopped me and asked "Why? Where did you hear about that technique? Why do you think it's working for you? What is it about that technique that you liked? How do you know it's working? How are you measuring success? etc etc. I was caught off-guard at first. Unlike many doctors I've met with, who ask the standard, basic questions, he's probably going to dig deeper.


Yourself
Be prepared to tell him in detail what you've been through and done so far. (This may be a recap; depending on what you send him in advance and if he has time to fully read and digest it...)

Every one of the points you've brought up about yourself in this thread, I would mention. Don't hold back. If you have doubts and fears, express those. Your past experience with panic attacks / anxiety will be very relevant. You should feel free to express any doubts you might have, or even mention some of the comments in this thread in which folks express doubts about the need to see a specialist - if you feel the same. Hell, even if you don't feel the same don't be afraid to mention it if you feel it's important for any reason.

If you're on any pain meds, mention those. Boobie's comment earlier about people's reluctance to get angry in these types of situations is well made. DO NOT be afraid to express any tough emotions or feelings. If you suddenly get into a rage, he's probably going to let you get it out, and then take some steps to lower your nervous system temp. lol. Here's a story related to this:

During the Q&A sessions Dr. Stracks will often ask for someone to volunteer for an exercise on some topic, or someone will just bring it up. He will start asking questions. The SECOND he senses you're going to respond with a soft, safe, blah answer he's going to keep coming back at you. He will do this politely, but firmly. He's trying to get you to really dig into your emotions and feelings. He's going to promote a safe environment where everyone's brains feel at ease, but he will dig.

Mention that you've been doing the course here at the TMS Wiki. He knows of the site and supports it... Tell him Scott says hello. lol.


Diagnosis? Nay!
In my first session he did not immediately diagnose me as having TMS, neuroplastic pain, etc. That was interesting to me and kind of disappointing because I was CRAVING a proper diagnosis, LOL. It's just another way for my personality (TMS personalities?) to try and take control of a situation. He did say that based on our interview, my MRI results, etc that he felt 99% certain that I did not have a structural problem. I asked him about this later during one of the Q&A sessions and he said something like "I don't like applying labels right away" or something to that effect. From what I gather, Dr. Schubiner's approach during a first session is similar. Dr. Stracks has since referred to my symptoms as neuroplastic. My take is that he's wanting to disarm you a bit. *shrug* not sure.


Game Plan Moving Forward
Dr. Stracks will probably suggest a general course of action, but don't expect some kind of detailed, step-by-step game plan. That can come later if you end up being a patient of his or one of the staff. My sense is that he doesn't want to rush into anything super detailed in terms of treatment. He will set you off in a good direction, however. If you feel you need more, tell him that during the session.


Therapy / Pain Coach
I've not gotten a sense from your posts as to where you are at with your anxiety. I don't have any sense of how much you feel you might need a therapist or pain coach.


Medical Records
Call the office and tell them you'd like to send some records to Dr. Stracks in advance of your appointment. They can give you an email address to use or set you up on the portal - which is the easiest and what I used - I think. lol.



Criticisms about Cormendi Health and Dr. Stracks
I really like Dr. Stracks and Cormendi. That doesn't mean I don't have issues. Here's some of my criticisms:

Academic
Dr. Stracks can sometimes come across as very academic. While most of what he says is easy to understand, sometimes he gets into an almost PhD level of conversation. There are times I wish he was more direct, but he is a fan of the socratic method - he's often going to answer your question by asking you a question. Some people don't mind that, but it can drive me bonkers, lol.

Cormeni Academy: Course Structure
I'm a member of the academy and really value the material, but it lacks the kind of step-by-step structure that most people would expect, and that is something that bugs me. For instance, should I watch this series of lectures first...or this one? There's kind of an order to it I guess, but barely.

Q&A Sessions
I find these generally excellent but, unlike other group learnings I've attended (like therapy or Curable sessions), Dr. Stracks seem sensitive when you offer advice to other participants in the session. Now, to be fair, with any group therapy type session you will generally be asked to always frame advice based on your own experience and not suggest that someone else do anything. Even when you follow that rule, he doesn't seem that receptive. I don't think it's an ego-thing, but might be? Not sure.


Last Thoughts
I hope your experience goes well! I really like Dr. Stracks and Cormendi, but I know two people who felt that his program was just not for them.

Let me know if you have anymore questions.

Thank you Scott G for your answers to my questions. That really helps me with expectations and to know what to have prepared so I can communicate my situation and clarify what I’m looking for.

For the sake of sharing since you mentioned it, I have struggled with panic disorder for a long time with anxiety, particularly panic disorder. I grew up in a good family, but my dad was rarely encouraging and very hard to please. He was a classic German. Discipline was meted out through moods. I didn’t notice my anxiety until high school. I had my first panic attack while trying to complete a timed typing class exercise. I didn’t know what a panic attack was. It wasn’t until much later that I learned that term.

the anxiety didn’t keep me from much thankfully. In college, I had another similar episode while trying to accomplish too much and make it to a class on time. Again, it didn’t lead to me restricting activities.

when I was 29 I started having panic attacks in the night. That’s when I began to research what was going on. I first thought I was having a heart attack. The fear spread through out my life. Then I learned all the terms about anxiety and panic and so forth. I started counseling, and then went on a medication. I don’t even remember what it was, but I was on it for 13 years. It was a very low dose that I took daily. Did it help? I thought so. I had periods of time when anxiety was not an issue, but then I had periods of time it was a weekly issue. I am a teacher, so I’m in front of people a lot. I also lead the worship singing time in front of the whole school (private Christian school) at the time. fear of panic did scare me, but I kept on. It seemed to really taper off around 2019

I decided to go off the medication in December 2019. I was fantastic for about three months. My doctor apparently knew nothing about how to taper, so I went off this medication over four weeks. Then I descended into the worst anxiety and panic I have ever had. I have since understood that my body was going through serious withdrawal.

it became a daily struggle to just be in front of my classes. I also developed a fear of sitting in places like theaters and crowds where I couldn’t easily get out since I had to have a panic attack in one of those settings. I tried to keep up with leading the worship with my guitar and singing. In time I cut back on it. Then I tried to co-lead to help, but eventually I just couldn’t handle it and stopped.

while I had been to various counselors throughout the years, many were inexpensive. I finally tried to track down a specialist in anxiety, and was finally willing to pay the money. The counselor proved to be fantastic. He is from anxiety solutions of Denver and his directions helped me a lot. I admittedly was tired of rehashing all my background and why I was anxious. I had been through that over and over again without real change. I wanted someone to walk me through exposure therapy with plans and accountability.

I finally saw some real change. I feel like I have the tools to get me through situations. Yet, if I’m honest, there are still things that once were a joy and easy for me to do, like getting up in front of our school to speak or sing, but I tend to avoid those now which makes me sad. I know I can get through them with the tools I’ve learned, but I still have a tendency to avoid those bigger settings as well as other settings, where I feel trapped. Unfortunately, while I can get through things, they feel like standing and letting someone punch me for as long as the activity continues. Yes, I can put up with it, but it doesn’t make me want to do it again.

as I have learned about TMS in the last three or four months, I begun to see how this might have been my brain’s way of distracting me from a lot of other life pressures. So, I’m wondering if there might be a more thorough solution through TMS therapy. I found it really interesting that many of my anxiety issues went away this past December when my physical TMS symptoms cropped up. Then, just recently as some of my symptoms have decreased, some of my anxiety issues have resurfaced.

I think it was a Dr. Sarno book that pointed out that panic attacks are really physical manifestations of interior emotions. That’s obvious as I read it, but I didn’t put two and two together before.

so, anyway, that’s my attempt to a history of my anxiety. As you can imagine, there’s much much more there, but that’s the somewhat brief version.

 

[Cactusflower]

@Stracksstory
That is a beautiful, vulnerable post about your internal world and your new insights into how the mind can effect the body. This is how healing begins. I love that you've explained how finding your joy is still a challenge.
My favorite TMS book is by forum member @TG957 called Defying The Verdict - it's a small book about her TMS experience and healing over time. One of the things she attributes her TMS to is fear -fears on many levels.
My husband has the rare panic attack. He now see this is TMS and just accepts that it happens from time to time and is learning not to fear the physical sensations of all that adrenaline in the body. That much adrenaline is clearly the nervous system in fight/flight and he can see that now. He is not one to do TMS work (although he believes in the concepts) eg. journaling (instead he writes songs), or meditating (instead he goes for long walks), has turned down job offers (he used to be highly competitive in the workplace) by understanding his needs and prioritizing them over his personality traits. He's a great example of putting TMS concepts to work in everyday life.
I think you are absolutely on your way there. In a short time you have gained so much insight.

 

[Scott G]

@Stracksstory
That is a beautiful, vulnerable post about your internal world and your new insights into how the mind can effect the body. This is how healing begins. I love that you've explained how finding your joy is still a challenge.
My favorite TMS book is by forum member @TG957 called Defying The Verdict - it's a small book about her TMS experience and healing over time. One of the things she attributes her TMS to is fear -fears on many levels.
My husband has the rare panic attack. He now see this is TMS and just accepts that it happens from time to time and is learning not to fear the physical sensations of all that adrenaline in the body. That much adrenaline is clearly the nervous system in fight/flight and he can see that now. He is not one to do TMS work (although he believes in the concepts) eg. journaling (instead he writes songs), or meditating (instead he goes for long walks), has turned down job offers (he used to be highly competitive in the workplace) by understanding his needs and prioritizing them over his personality traits. He's a great example of putting TMS concepts to work in everyday life.
I think you are absolutely on your way there. In a short time you have gained so much insight.

This is a great, great response. I LOVE the fact that your husband WRITES SONGS rather than journaling. How incredibly creative. Very cool.

 

[Scott G]

@Stracksstory thanks for the detailed reply. That adds a lot of insight, and is all excellent stuff to share with Dr. Stracks. An abbreviated version, along with your current symptoms and their patterns for appearing, is perfect to send him in advance.

@BloodMoon really had the perfect two things to ask Dr. Stracks:

You could explicitly ask him (assuming that he's a practitioner who lets his clients get a word in edgeways and is open to allowing them to kind of direct proceedings at least a bit):

• “Based on my symptoms (shaky‑weak forearms/hands, no objective weakness, plus heart‑sensitivity and fluctuating distress), does this sound like a TMS/neuroplastic pattern to you?”
  
  
• “If it does, what would a simple protocol look like for me for the next 4–6 weeks?”

Succinct, to the point. Excellent.

When is your appointment scheduled for again?

 

[Stracksstory]

When is your appointment scheduled for again?

It’s on June 1st

 

[Scott G]

Ah, cool. Coming up!

 

[Scott G]

@Stracksstory Hey, did you have the appointment? How did it go?

 

[Stracksstory]

Hi Scott G, thanks for the followup. I did have the appointment and it went very well. Besides the "covering the bill" part, I'm really glad I did it. I did notice quite a few of the things you mentioned about your observations of Dr. Stracks. You were spot on! I also told him you said hi

He fulfilled a major purpose of my appointment. He reiterated frequently that, based on my circumstances, my situation is mindbody and not structural. That's huge and helpful.

He validated the work I've already done to deal with my symptoms and encouraged me that I had made a lot of progress. We got to talk about my panic anxiety as well. I was hoping for some surprising new approach that would eradicate that from my life, but he largely affirmed what my anxiety therapist had taught me. He's probably right there. I was slightly hoping for a 'silver bullet' from him on that situation. Still, my main point in seeing him was about TMS. He made valuable connections between what my anxiety therapist had taught me and how that related to my dealing with mindbody symptoms. He pointed out that this gave me a framework in dealing with TMS that has helped me make the progress that I have. In fact, I now see them as almost the same thing since Panic is really a physical manifestation of inner emotions.

We got to talk through how to keep moving forward and how to deal with symptoms when/if they return (or new ones arise). Key amongst that is, 1. recognizing what it is (mindbody and not structural-and that my brain is trying to help me), not being afraid of the symptoms, and doing the work.

He also said "You're not missing anything." It's true. I've been scouring TMS books, podcasts, messages and so on trying to track down the last bit of "how-to" that I figured would solve it all. He helped me relax and work with the things that have helped instead of chasing something I've missed. I still enjoy all of those resources and they really strengthen my journey, but I trust what I've already learned.

My symptoms have continued to decrease especially in light of my more firm confidence in the TMS diagnosis, so I'm super grateful.

I don't have plans for a scheduled followup and he didn't say it was necessary. He recommended a book, Boundaries by Dr. Cloud, which I read probably two decades ago but it would be a good review.

Thanks for the follow up, encouragement, and insights. All of these were helpful.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

My symptoms have continued to decrease especially in light of my more firm confidence in the TMS diagnosis, so I'm super grateful.

That's the key - it all sounds great!

 

[Booble]

Key amongst that is, 1. recognizing what it is (mindbody and not structural-and that my brain is trying to help me), not being afraid of the symptoms, and doing the work.

Great job! Sounds like it went well.
I don't know if this will help you or not but when I first learned about TMS we were still calling with Sarno's name: Tension Myositis Syndrome.
I don't think I would have been able to solve my mains so quickly if I had looked at it as The MindBody Syndrome. What resonated for me was the real physical aspect. That the body was creating an actual physical tension through a physiological process. I found out later that supposedly Sarno's use of the word tension was for the mental tension not the physical tension but viewing it as physical tension allowed me to easily release it --after many months of pain (in my throat that time) that I could not resolve. It was so bad that I went for a few weeks not talking in hopes of letting things "heal" despite having a job where I needed to talk to people. And then I learned about Tension Myositis Syndrome, did a little work on uncovering hidden anger, and while doing so like a true healing miracle my throat released and that was the end of it.

Glad things went well for you and you feel like you are on the right track. Wishing for no more need for physical pain for you!

 

[Scott G]

@Stracksstory Oh man, I'm so glad to hear it went well! I'd highly recommend Dr. Howard Schubiner's new book as well - Unlearn Your Pain (Not to be confused with his previous book of the same name - which is now called the 'Unlearn Your Pain Workbook' lol). I'm only part way in, but it's written brilliantly.

I can't remember if I've mentioned it here in this thread, but I too suffer from anxiety and was diagnosed back in January. It was amazing to me how similar so many of the anxiety therapy skills were to those found in Pain Reprocessing Therapy and Emotional Awareness and Expression Therapy. I remember having a similar conversation with Dr. Stracks about that as you did.

Dr. Schubiner talks about how anxiety is really another symptom/form of TMS. My psychiatrist here in Chicago, Dr. Aaron Reichlin - who also works closely with Dr. Stracks/Dr. Schubiner/Dr. Dan Ratner - firmly believes the same. He's the only psychiatrist in the city (so far, anyway) that does neuroplastic / TMS work. The work I'm doing on my neuroplastic pain is definitely helping my anxiety, and vice versa.

Check out this recent interview with Dan Ratner and Dr. Schubiner. Great stuff!

@Stracksstory don't be a stranger. Keep us updated!

 

[BloodMoon]

I was slightly hoping for a 'silver bullet' from him on that situation.

I used to hope for a bit of a “silver bullet” too, but what’s helped me more is just picking up little nuggets of insight and a few mind-body techniques that actually stick. Not as immediate or dramatic, but they do seem to add up.

I’ve found Schubiner’s newer book really helpful because he doesn’t seem to dismiss any one approach — Sarno, PRT, or anything else — and encourages you to experiment and see what clicks. I also think his interviews on YouTube are great, because he’s really good at putting things into a neat nutshell.

Not sure if you’ve already seen it, but I posted in a thread with a few takeaways from the book https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/new-‘unlearn-your-pain’.33619/page-2#post-173058 and that thread also has links to quite a few Schubiner interviews.

And that’s great to hear about your symptoms decreasing. It sounds like the consultation with Dr Stracks has really helped strengthen your confidence to keep going with the mind-body work.

 

[Booble]

I’ve found Schubiner’s newer book really helpful because he doesn’t seem to dismiss any one approach — Sarno, PRT, or anything else — and encourages you to experiment and see what clicks.

I'll just add a quick caveat here. I think that sometimes the large field of "mind-body" makes it harder to solve the issues. It can feel overwhelming and conflicting and you try all sorts of things that have no impact and it can make you wonder if this is all hocus pocus nonsense.

That's why, for me, when I learned about Tension Myositis Syndrome I liked that Sarno didn't categorize per se as mind-body, which is such an ephemeral term.
I had been aware of the connection between your mind and body but that wasn't anything concrete and it felt too "woo woo" and kind of "earthy crunchy" New Age as we used to call things back in the day.
Sarno put things in physiological terms and that made all the difference for me.

 

[BloodMoon]

I'll just add a quick caveat here. I think that sometimes the large field of "mind-body" makes it harder to solve the issues. It can feel overwhelming and conflicting and you try all sorts of things that have no impact and it can make you wonder if this is all hocus pocus nonsense.

That's why, for me, when I learned about Tension Myositis Syndrome I liked that Sarno didn't categorize per se as mind-body, which is such an ephemeral term.
I had been aware of the connection between your mind and body but that wasn't anything concrete and it felt too "woo woo" and kind of "earthy crunchy" New Age as we used to call things back in the day.
Sarno put things in physiological terms and that made all the difference for me.

I get what you’re saying, and I agree that the broader “mind-body” space can feel a bit unfocused if it’s presented without a clear framework.

That said, I don’t think the variety of approaches is the problem so much as how it’s understood. A lot of these models — Sarno, PRT, Schubiner’s work — are converging on similar underlying mechanisms, like learned neural pathways, predictive processing, and the brain generating real physical symptoms in the absence of structural damage.

Sarno was ahead of his time in describing that in physiological terms, which is probably why it feels so solid and convincing. But more recent approaches are building on that with findings from pain neuroscience — things like central sensitization, neuroplasticity, and expectation-driven perception — rather than contradicting it.

So for me, having multiple approaches isn’t about adding confusion, it’s about having different ways of accessing the same core process. If anything, that flexibility seems more consistent with what we know about how individual and context-dependent pain processing is.

I can see why a single, clearly defined model works really well for some people. I just don’t think that necessarily means the broader field is “hocus pocus” — it may just reflect that there’s more than one effective way into the same underlying mechanism.

 

[Booble]

I get what you’re saying, and I agree that the broader “mind-body” space can feel a bit unfocused if it’s presented without a clear framework.

That said, I don’t think the variety of approaches is the problem so much as how it’s understood. A lot of these models — Sarno, PRT, Schubiner’s work — are converging on similar underlying mechanisms, like learned neural pathways, predictive processing, and the brain generating real physical symptoms in the absence of structural damage.

Sarno was ahead of his time in describing that in physiological terms, which is probably why it feels so solid and convincing. But more recent approaches are building on that with findings from pain neuroscience — things like central sensitization, neuroplasticity, and expectation-driven perception — rather than contradicting it.

So for me, having multiple approaches isn’t about adding confusion, it’s about having different ways of accessing the same core process. If anything, that flexibility seems more consistent with what we know about how individual and context-dependent pain processing is.

I can see why a single, clearly defined model works really well for some people. I just don’t think that necessarily means the broader field is “hocus pocus” — it may just reflect that there’s more than one effective way into the same underlying mechanism.

I agree with all of that and I definitely didn't mean to suggest that it IS hocus pocus (or "woo woo") just that for me I wouldn't have explored it because of the PERCEPTION of it being affiliated with "New Age" genre. A general mind body connection despite being science based doesn't FEEL science based especially when there are so many adjacent practitioners and fields. Really I was just sharing my personal experience that I lucked upon Sarno -- specifically this forum and a post with the old 20/20 show episode. That gave me one simple, clear, and effective path to follow. That's why I sometimes wonder if other people get lost unnecessarily among all the different avenues and/or just roll their eyes and not even explore further. For me, "tension myositis syndrome" was something I could wrap my brain around where as "mind body syndrome" not so much.

I think we are in agreement though that there are, as my brother used to say, "many ways to skin a cat." (Not sure why he wanted to skin a cat!)

 

[BloodMoon]

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to how you first come across it and what feels believable to you.

Sarno didn’t click with me at first—especially the anger/rage side of it; it felt a bit too Freudian. What pulled me in more was the physical explanation, even though I know that’s debated now. I bought into the hypoxia idea because my main symptom was head-to-toe muscle pain—without that, I don’t think I would’ve engaged with it at all, and I might still have been bed bound.

Which probably proves your point—people either find an angle that clicks, or they switch off / get overwhelmed and move on. The challenge with forums is you never really know what’s going to land for someone.

 

[Booble]

Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to how you first come across it and what feels believable to you.

Sarno didn’t click with me at first—especially the anger/rage side of it; it felt a bit too Freudian. What pulled me in more was the physical explanation, even though I know that’s debated now. I bought into the hypoxia idea because my main symptom was head-to-toe muscle pain—without that, I don’t think I would’ve engaged with it at all, and I might still have been bed bound.

Which probably proves your point—people either find an angle that clicks, or they switch off / get overwhelmed and move on. The challenge with forums is you never really know what’s going to land for someone.

So true. I didn't really internalize the hypoxia idea but thought of it more as an unconscious muscle tightening at a deeper level. Very relatable because I could consciously force my muscles to relax for a few seconds but then they would tighten right back up. I couldn't stop it for more than a minute or two. It wasn't until I did anger seeking (which I thought for sure I didn't have any anger!) that it cleared right up.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I get what you’re saying, and I agree that the broader “mind-body” space can feel a bit unfocused if it’s presented without a clear framework.

That said, I don’t think the variety of approaches is the problem so much as how it’s understood. A lot of these models — Sarno, PRT, Schubiner’s work — are converging on similar underlying mechanisms, like learned neural pathways, predictive processing, and the brain generating real physical symptoms in the absence of structural damage.

Sarno was ahead of his time in describing that in physiological terms, which is probably why it feels so solid and convincing. But more recent approaches are building on that with findings from pain neuroscience — things like central sensitization, neuroplasticity, and expectation-driven perception — rather than contradicting it.

So for me, having multiple approaches isn’t about adding confusion, it’s about having different ways of accessing the same core process. If anything, that flexibility seems more consistent with what we know about how individual and context-dependent pain processing is.

I can see why a single, clearly defined model works really well for some people. I just don’t think that necessarily means the broader field is “hocus pocus” — it may just reflect that there’s more than one effective way into the same underlying mechanism.

Yeah I agree with you. The reality is, is that many people who find themselves here are dealing with multiple widespread severe symptoms simultaneously. From what I’ve read about Sarno, he would’ve refused these people as patients, because the scope of what could’ve been mind body wasn’t so well established and these people were simultaneously dealing with a much much greater degree of panic and doubt. Sarno himself acknowledged fibromyalgia as being a severe form of TMS. Everyone’s situation is different and the path towards addressing each individual situation is unique and requires frequent adjustment. Sarno was a doctor and scientist and his theory was just that, a theory and hypothesis. He synthesized Freuds teaching as they relate to modern chronic conditions. It’s pretty clear at this stage that TMS is nervous system dysfunction, non human animals get mind body symptoms, from stress and subsequent nervous system dysfunction. Is that rage or is it because their current reality is stress inducing? I get frustrated when people want to just hammer home the repressed rage/anger thing and act like that’s enough to get people dealing with 20 symptoms at once home. Their inner worlds have been on fire for years if not decades, there’s a much bigger picture issue there. If this is all just a ‘test’ or ‘game’ by the brain to distract us from our rage that it feels would threaten our ability to function in society, why do people with chronic symptoms kill themselves? Wouldn’t that brain, which priortizes survival admit the jig is up before it reaches that point? People want to put things in a neat little box and put a bow on it, reality is much more complicated and unfortunately darker.

 

[Booble]

there’s a much bigger picture issue there.

But is there?