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The Presence Process - Share Experiences & Ask Questions

Discussion in 'Community Off Topic' started by BrianC, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    One thing I have become aware of, that is kind of interesting to me, is how in the book it talks about after we have completed the 15 minutes of conscious breathing exercise, we should just kind of sit and be with whatever comes up in us. That makes perfect sense for me, but I have seen this tendency in me to want to just jump up and be done with it because I got through the 15 minutes pretty smoothly. I have a hunch that this is defeating the purpose. I kind of have weird expectations, like I will be flooded with memories and suppressed emotions and just crippled by them, but that has not really been the case. I am sure that there is much to integrate within myself, but it seems like nothing is really happening, but I also have kind of been accepting that as just where the process is at for me in this moment. I do at times just spontaneously cry and feel various emotions and memories come up, but thus far they have not really been linked so much to just the process of conscious breathing, although, like I mention, I do realize that I am very early in the process. It is exciting and encouraging to me to be doing this though, and I am very much motivated and engaged with it and am committed to doing this for the entire 10 weeks. Hope it's okay for me to share these experiences here with the PP thus far.
    John
     
  2. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    John,

    By all means, share. It helps other people who have the same issues come up.

    You're probably correct about the feat of emotions coming up. That happened to me too, at times.

    The emotions don't necessarily come up right when the breathing is done. Sometimes, they come up in the middle of the day. So what you described is totally normal regarding the spontaneous crying or other emotions coming up randomly. That sounds to me like you're making good progress. Was it normal for that to happen before you started TPP?
     
  3. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    Brian,
    It has been pretty normal in the past year, but I could never make a connection from heavily felt emotions to non-integrated feelings. It almost seems to me like I am hung up on semantics, and maybe the concept of integration could also be another way of saying experiencing repressed emotions, (which I have a lot of). So it is very meaningful to me, and for me to be doing this process, because I think the timing on it for me is ideal. Like I mention this past year I have been aware of a lot of emotional stuff under the surface but have not really processed any of it. One thing that I like so far a lot about PP is that it is not saying to analyze these emotions or to "figure them out." That would be akin to analytical psychology in my view, and while there is value in that, there is also a blockage for me that is created in that understanding a feeling doesn't always help me to process it. In fact it could complicate that even more so. So I am really excited about this whole journey and thanks again. Just being with these non-integrated feelings and emotions has never been something I have been willing to do, until now, and for that I am extremely grateful, because I do think that there is great healing in that. At least I am hoping... (lol).
     
  4. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    John,

    I really can't say for certain if there's a surefire way to know if we're experiencing strong emotions or repressed emotions (non-integrated feelings). But I kind of look at it like this--any emotions that are negative/uncomfortable that I experience are the unintegrated dysfunctioning emotions. A person who is fully healthy emotionally has no attachments, and therefore, cannot experience loss. They have no reason to experience loss anymore because they cling to nothing and they need nothing. They've resolved all of their loss from the past which influenced a fear of loss. Same goes for fear or anger. Those people like that are completely content, but few achieve that. Better to just live in the moment and work on things a little at a time. God's got it all worked out. We just have to trust and keep working on whatever we feel is important. When people get a lot of stuff integrated (not everything), it helps a ton, and they don't feel those uncomfortable emotions nearly as much anymore. And when they do feel them, they're excited that they're getting to integrate something new! It's an interesting process. I love it. You'll get clarity on the feelings and felt resonances and emotions, etc, as you go through TPP.

    And you're right, it's a big relief to not have to analyze anymore. I liked my long break from analyzing. I still try not to analyze hardly at all now, but I do at certain times when it's vital to an integration.
     
  5. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    John,

    I forgot to say that even though it was normal, before, to have the random emotions coming up, the difference, now, is that you know what to do with the emotions so they can integrate. So they weren't resolving before, but they can now.
     
  6. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    Hi Brain,
    Yes. I have noticed that as well. Thanks for the followup. I am not a hugely emotional person to start with, and so I have been paying close attention to these. I like how the text on Week 2 talks about these things being more discernible as feelings or sensations, than as actual memories often times. That is how it is for me, so I have just been trying to notice my reflections and projections when they arise, and it is very interesting because I see very clearly how my tendency is to play the role of the victim in those places. I have spent a life time being so reactive to these things, and just being in this space of presence now, (although I definitely am not doing it perfectly) is giving me a chance to not react to those reflections as I have always done before and that is so liberating. Onward and upward I guess.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  7. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    Hi Brian,
    Started week 3 today. Kind of interesting in that just as I seem to be getting the hang of a certain week it will be going into the next week. I definitely see why some people do TPP multiple times. I could see myself doing that. That is pretty cool, as when I was in week 1 I couldn't see myself finishing the 10 weeks and now I can, and it's all very meaningful to me. I still am trying to figure it out too much, I am sure. Using my intellectual reasoning is a huge barrier to my feeling bodily sensations or repressed feelings. Then when I see something coming up, I find myself trying to understand it rather than just feeling it, but I guess that is probably typical for neophytes like me. Even having something come up in my life that elicited a strong emotional reaction of fear and revulsion (which I could definitely feel that as a physical sensation) I found myself trying to think my way into recalling earlier times in my life where I'd experienced that physical sensation as a feeling and I got lost in my "thinking" again. Maybe just continuing with the 15 minutes breathing practice 2 times a day and just being gentle and patient with myself will be the trick to being more present with these feelings as they surface. Do you think? I did sense some things looking back in time as feeligns and then I immediately started to "think about the events," and I lost the feeling component of it all. I think that's what TPP was saying we want to avoid, but maybe that is common in the beginning of it all, and hopefully just continuing on this path will smooth out as the week and the rest of TPP continues. I look forward to any thoughts or comments you might have about this. If it makes sense.
    John
     
  8. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    John,

    Thanks for the update!

    You're correct. TOP wants a person to stop thinking about the feelings and just feel them unconditionally. No need to figure them out. I think that's important to learn first. Much later, there are ways to think about things that can help. But learning to feel unconditionally without trying to figure things out is extremely important to do first and get good at. Without that, we wouldn't be able to get the feelings to come up at all, really.

    I agree, continuing the breathing twice a day is very helpful to keeping the feelings surfacing as needed for processing.

    Glad to hear things are going well with the process!

    - Brian
     
  9. VVG

    VVG Newcomer

    Hi all,

    I'm new on this forum but have been a big fan of Michael Brown and TPP for a while now.

    By way of introduction I started TPP in 2012 and have done it around 5 times now. I have had some wonderful experiences with TPP and present moment awareness in general.

    I also sometimes experience addiction and use this as an unskillful method to block emotions. I have worked within support groups (12 step and others) on this which has helped me to halt the addiction but has also put me into my head and become another way of avoiding the real causal point.

    I'm interested in, and will hopefully post more on, the interplay between support groups/community/sangha and individual responsibility/self-facilitation.

    Your thoughts, questions or experiences are very welcome..

    Brian - thanks for setting up this thread, I haven't read it all but have been here a few times over the years, just never felt called to post until now.

    John - enjoy your process!

    All best,

    VVG
     
  10. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    Hi, John!

    Good to have you here! It's nice to have someone else here who's done TPP as many times as me. I'm sure you have a lot of good experiences to share. I've also done 12 step groups in the past before TPP for about 2.5 years, but TPP gave me what those groups couldn't, which was an understanding of how to bring up emotions and how to love myself unconditionally to handle and integrate them.

    I'm actually not an advocate of anything else Michael Brown does or believes. I think he's gone way off the reservation with some of the things he's done and believes in. In fact, the Temple of the Light (I think that's what it's called) that he's a part of now has him convinced that TPP is nice but pointless in the grand scheme of things. Not only that, but they attempt to teach you how to specifically go into other dimensions knowing full well that the first three dimensions are controlled by Satan. What's funny is that none of them have eve considered that the rest of the dimensions past those are controlled by Satan, as well. LOL I mean, wow...how do you not see that possibility? I once tried their meditation for a while so I could try to access those realms, but it was because I have some tools they don't which will show me if it's a fraud or not. I worked with people with multiple personality disorder for 5 years and talked them through navigating those realms (dimensions) in order to use certain parts (such as finding Jesus there and the Fountain of Life where He always is) to help them heal and integrate their personalities. Once you know the rules and some specific tools, you can weed out all of the deception I those realms. But there's no chance they have those tools from what I'm aware of regarding their beliefs and origins.

    Oh well. I've believed things that were untrue before.

    I've started working with one more multiple who went to a Huichol Shaman (of the light side of Hiuchol) and he ended up cursing her, opening her third eye, and unlocking Kundalini in her. Kundalini ravaged her. And the curses are pretty awful. She used to be New Age for a very long time, but all of the New Age healers and teachers she talked to told her there's no way to get rid of Kundalini. Christians told her Jesus could take care of it over and over again, so eventually, she ended up being saved and going that route which has worked amazingly for her. That's how she came across me. My beliefs are Christian but I don't call myself a Christian. I don't care for mainstream Christianity and I think labels and religions divided people rather than help them. It's just us and God...religion is just a convention in our heads, ideas and rituals we attribute to God but have little to no way to confirm many of them. So it doesn't physically exist. It's a convention. But if we can move past religion to relationship with God, then that's useful and real.

    I got off topic a little. Anyway, Michael Brown does fire ceremonies with Huichol Indians, using the hallucinogenic drugs to induce altered states and get insights from the spirit realm. I'm not judging them or anything. But after seeing what one of their supposed light side shamans did to the lady I mentioned above, I figure it's a good idea not to dabble in that stuff. That lady was in a lot of pain because of what was done to her spiritually by the guy. So that and the Temple of Light cult make me leary of anything MB's into nowadays.

    As far as TPP goes, I think it's pretty much right on with how to heal dysfunctioning emotions. And I think that frees us from a whole lot of things. There are other ways to get free and there are things TPP can't deal with, of course, but it's a great foundation for dealing with emotions.

    I added a little to the method where I take my beliefs and talk to the dysfunctioning parts of me while they're emotionally surfaced, but that's just my way of helping those parts of me change their flawed beliefs that keep them from integrating their dysfunctional emotions. TPP tells the beliefs up front and hopes they'll soak in with the repetition during the process. I used my own beliefs instead and I use them while the emotion is surfaced. Not every time...just when a dysfunctioning emotion is hanging around longer than I think it should. So I correct it's flawed belief and it integrates.

    I'm curious to here some of your experiences with TPP! Glad you posted.
     
  11. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    Hello again,
    I am about to complete week 5 of TPP. It's all been going really well, but I have a very basic question. The text for the chapter talks about assessing emotional signatures. It says something to the effect of, "If we have a persistent back ache we ask ourselves, "how does this back ache make me feel." My question is this. I don't really notice a lot of body aches and pains that I'd necessarily call "ongoing," but I do notice a lot of emotional pain. So whenever the chapter is talking about "body pains or sensations," is it safe to say it's also open to those things being emotional in nature. So many of my "reactions" to emotional states that rise up in me that I can definitely trace to childhood experiences I can see an "emotional signature" involved with and I am just being present with that now and trying to just be with it all unconditionally. I even tried the suggestion Brown mentions in the chapter for week 5 of visualizing myself as a child of 7 or so feeling those sensations and just hugging my little child as my adult self. I found that helpful and also found it helpful just to be present with those sensations as an adult and realize those sensations had their birth long ago. Is that more or less what the chapter is driving at? I sure hope so. It's all been going very well I think, and any feedback or comments are gladly accepted. Thanks in advance!
    John
     
  12. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    That's correct, John. You're doing it just as it describes. The only thing I added to that is if I know what the incorrect belief is that's causing that little child part of me to hurt, I will voice it's frustration or sadness or anger or fear in my head, sort of having a conversation with it, then share with it the truth that corrects it's false belief. Once it's false belief is corrected, it will usually integrate. But I wouldn't tell anyone to do that until they have done at least one or two PPs. Better not to complicate it for a while and just learn to enjoy the pain and accept it. My way is very tricky. It's like working on the backend with beliefs instead of working on the front end with them like MB does.

    Thanks for the details and question. That'll help others who read this.

    - Brian
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  13. csunmft

    csunmft Newcomer

    Hi Brian,
    Thanks so much for your feedback. I find it invaluable. One thing I wanted to comment on, and ask you about is this. I have been working on week 6 for a few days now, and I am finding it really meaningful. The concern I have is this. When I become aware of emotions, (and don't react to them) but do the steps that the text talks about, (a. Dismiss the messenger, b. Receive the message (insight) by turning my attention inward-using felt perception, and c. Feeling unconditionally-feel it as it is with no agenda. Don't try to understand or interpret it), I have been able to do all that, and it has been relatively easy, but my concern is I seem to hold on to that third part of the integration procedure. Like once I start feeling it I am just feeling it and feeling it. Then I notice it is not having a hold on me as much or some other aspect of my day or that moment will come into my awareness and draw my focus away of feeling the charged emotion 0r whatever term that would be. So I am just curious how to know when to "stop feeling that" charged emotion? I guess we would stop feeling it like that "charge" which I tend to react to (but not so much since embarking on TPP, when it has become integrated which makes sense. I hope all that makes sense, because I found the text a little vague on it. It gave me the impression we are to hold on to that felt perception indefinitely. Just holding on to it for 2 or 3 minutes is definitely new behavior for me, as I have spent a lifetime running from those feelings and so I just hope to get a little more clarity on this from you if at all possible. Thanks again for your insight and feedback!
    John`
     
  14. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    Thanks for the question, John!

    There's no clear instruction on how long to hold the emotion. I took that to mean that I should just hold the emotion as long as I can.

    Don't worry about your mind getting distracted and you losing the emotion. That's totally normal. You'll probably get better at holding the emotion with more practice. I think it'll come more naturally, eventually, so it's not any extra work on your part to keep the feeling around for a while. Beliefs and practice are important for developing that. Takes a lot of non-judgment and practice.

    Hope that helps. Good luck!

    - Brian
     
  15. VVG

    VVG Newcomer

    Hi again,

    Brian - thanks for your response. Yes I agree some of Michael Brown's writings is a bit far out and can be unhelpful if one isn't centred with their own compass first. I didn't know about any of the Temple of the Light stuff and don't think I'll be looking too much into this either. I did enjoy 'Cat Tales for Mariette' though and this is pretty light-hearted and harmless.

    As to my experiences of TPP - the first time had the most profound effect on me. To set the scene - I had quit my job just before Christmas 2011 to take a break and to recover from stress/addiction, I was in a secure financial position so didn't have to worry the bills for a while and I was fairly early on in addiction recovery and getting support from a 12-step group, and a holistic doctor who had introduced me to TPP. I was also alone in a newly decorated flat with hardly any furniture; in essence I had a huge amount of space and a lot of support around me. The long-term mental suffering of my life up until then combined with this space, the safety of realising that emotions weren't the problem but the solution, and the knowledge that I wasn't the voice in my head led to an opening or cracking of my ego as I read TPP for the first time. Just reading the text in this 'open' state was a very profound, so profound that I was scared to do TPP experimentally, and had to check with my holistic doctor that it was indeed safe for me to do TPP. I'll try and write more about this in due course..

    Back to the present - I last completed TPP about 6 weeks ago, however in the later 'emotional leg' weeks I found myself covering over some uncomfortable emotions with addictive behaviour. I soon realised that I couldn't progress any further emotionally whilst this remnant of compulsive behaviour was still with me. The amount of addiction was high enough that I couldn't seem to pass through it on my own, however it was low enough that I was getting on with the practicalities of life and I was reluctant to go back to 12-step meetings in case the cure was worse that the dis-ease. By chance an old 12-step friend texted me about a new Refuge Recovery group (A Buddhist path to recovery) and I have been doing that for the last 5 weeks. I'm enjoying it and have my sobriety back and I am now experiencing and am able to work with my uncomfortable emotions again. Also the stabilisation effect of the meetings isn't too rigid and I feel that I have space to make mistakes and explore, which wasn't the case in 12-step. Slightly off topic I know but thought this might be useful in any case.

    John - I won't add anything except to say it looks as if you are going well so all the best for the next few weeks..

    Best wishes,

    VVG
     
  16. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    Thanks for sharing some of your experiences, John. That's great that the Refuge Recovery has been more helpful than 12 Step. The group you attend in 12 Step can make or break your recovery. Some groups are really easy going like your Refuge Recovery and others are extremely rigid, especially a lot of the AA groups. Some of those guys are hardcore.

    I've never heard of Cat Tales for Mariette. What kind of book is that?

    Talk to you later, John!
     
  17. VVG

    VVG Newcomer

    Hi Brian,

    Cat Tales for Mariette is Michael Brown's first novel. It is a story about a friendship that develops between Michael and a lady called Mariette who is dying from Cancer. Mariette's big regret in life is that she didn't get to live with cats.. so Michael, begrudgingly at first, visits her in hospital to tell her about his many tales of living with cats and the various insights and lessons he has learnt from them. They both end up really enjoying his storytelling visits and it is a touching story. Whilst it isn't going to set the literary world alight it is a good and enjoyable read, which is more than I can say for many books which the critics rave about. Another nice thing about Cat Tales is that it can be read by anyone, they don't have to be into emotional integration/personal development so in some ways it can be a nice bridge between the two worlds.

    Also I just thought I'd say that my name is David.. a bit confusing I know as I refer to John at the end as he's also posting on this thread! When I signed up to the forum I wanted to create an alias and looked around my room to see a copy of Sunflowers by Vincent Van Gogh hence VVG but it is nothing to do with my name so I won't use that to sign off anymore.

    Best wishes,

    David
     
  18. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    Thanks for the info, David.

    I didn't know MB had a novel out. I remember him talking about wanting to put out a different type of novel, but I wasn't sure if he ever got that one out.

    Writing is a tough market to make it in whether you're a good writer or not, because a lot of it is about the marketing. There's a sort of formula to follow, but it's hard to figure out and hard to execute well. Only 1% of writers actually manage to sell enough to do it for a living, but that percentage has probably gotten even worse since self-publishing hit the scene. I'm sure it'll take me a while, assuming I'm ever able to execute the plan correctly. lol I can see how MB's book wouldn't work out because it's a hard theme to sell.

    Talk to you later, David. Have a good week!

    - Brian
     
  19. Banjo

    Banjo New Member

    Hi Brian,
    TPP has benefited me greatly and I have been through the process many times over the last 5-6 years. I was struck by your statements about MB "going off the reservation." What is the temple of light group? I remember seeing MB pop up on some ahyahusca (sp?) group's page that had a similar name but I never remember seeing anything about going to different dimensions. How did you find out about his taking part in such a group and that they have convinced him that TPP is "nice but pointless in the grand scheme of things?" Did he write an article stating something like that? If so please direct me to it as I would like to read his statements. Thanks.
     
  20. BrianC

    BrianC Well known member

    Hi, Banjo. Good to hear from you!

    Well, the information I got was directly from MB and another source, as well, so I wouldn't really be able to direct you to it online. MB gave me a digital copy of one of his books for me to read and said to keep it to myself since it wasn't published yet. He said he wasn't sure if he was going to publish it or not. Once I read it, I replied to him with just a few of the several mistakes it contained regarding historical Christianity and the Bible and the figures in the Bible, etc. I imagine he got those historical inaccuracies from the Temple of the Light's guru (or whatever that organization is called--I'm pretty sure I'm using the wrong name). Once he heard that, he was sure he wasn't going to publish it. When I offered to give him the accurate historical information so he could correct his mistakes in the book, he said, "No, you're getting too involved now." And that was that. Never talked to him again after that. He claimed before that that he liked when someone proved him wrong, but he sure didn't want me to send all of the inaccuracies so he could correct his mistakes, so I dropped it. I was just trying to help but he didn't want any help. I can understand someone being frustrated after writing an entire book only to find out that a huge part of it was completely discredited, making the entire thing nearly pointless or useless so that it can't be published. He would've been torn apart by scholars with all of the inaccuracies about Christianity he had in the book.

    Anyway, I think I'm okay to discuss topics from the book because he's posted about them on his website while chatting to other people in the open for everyone to see. The book I read was written as if he were going to see the guru of one of these Temple-of the-Light-type groups. In it, while he's interviewing the guru, the guru says that he's read The Presence Process, and while it was a good process, ultimately, it won't help anyone in the eternal sense...but his Temple of Light meditation will help with eternal matters of karma, though, and help someone get to God. The guru says flat out that The Presence Process is useless, pretty much, and MB accepts this. He's enamored with this guru. He cites in the book, and on his website, that everyone who goes into the inner realms (other dimensions) successfully will find out the truth about everything--about Christianity, about life, about God, all of it, regardless of which religion they are. They believe those dimensions clearly show the proof of this and everyone's convinced when they go into those realms and see them for their self and talk to people there...like Jesus. I know a LOT about the inner realms because I taught people with multiple personality disorder how to navigate them and get to God and work on healing so they could fully heal and merge all of their personalities into one again. I guarantee they don't know the things I know and the tools I know about that are vital to navigating those realms so that a person isn't fooled in there. Without those things, I can guarantee a person will be fooled in those realms, easily. So I told MB about some of those tools and said that if he ever actually achieved getting into those realms to please try out those tools to test those realms and the people there. I doubt he listened to me, but you never know. I'm not sure how well the tools would work for him as opposed to the people I was working with. I was able to direct those people in real-time (no, I've never been into the inner realms/dimensions), and I was able to help. I learned how and had some good help learning. MB and the gurus have none of what I had to prepare. Doesn't make me smarter or more special, of course. Just means I was a lot better prepared and had a full-proof method that worked to make sure no one was deceived there. (By the way, it's normal for people with multiple personality disorder to see into that inner realm and go into it well before they met me, and that's the only place I would work with them on healing since that's the only way I knew to get them healed up). Yeah, it's pretty "out there," but it worked, so I used it.

    I've read MB posting about things from that book on his website, so I assume it's okay for me to discuss it here. But you'd have to track him down and ask him directly about that stuff to get the full story on it. I only know part of the story (the stuff I've seen and read) so I don't have the full story, and I don't want to deface anyone. MB's a nice guy, smart guy. I just don't agree with his worldview and methods beyond TPP, and that's just my opinion from what I know and have studies and my experiences, and who's to say I'm right? I can't know if I'm right for certain.

    I heard the temple of the light thing from someone else--maybe here, another poster. I can't remember for certain. And that's why I think I have the wrong name for the organization they said MB said he was meditating with. There was no name for the group I was meditating with that was like the Temple of the Light, at least not to my knowledge. I'd hoped to get into the inner realms and use the tools I've learned about to get down to the truth of the matter regarding those realms, but I could tell after several months of doing it that I was one of the majority of people who did the meditations and yet was never able to get to the inside realms. The people seemed nice enough and the guy in charge (like a guru, more or less) seemed really nice. But I just didn't agree with their worldview. I've seen too much and learned too much to know that they're being deceived. But again...who's to say I'm right? Who knows who's right. And I really can't prove them wrong unless I can get into that realm, and I don't plan to try anymore. I'm perfectly content with this life and this realm. :)

    I hope that answered all your questions. If not, just let me know and I'll try to clarify or answer any other questions I can. MB would have to be the one to clarify in more detail for you, most likely, though. My information is incomplete regarding him, so take it with a grain of salt. :) It's not my job to convince anyone of anything since I might be wrong, but rather just to share what I've learned and let people do their own research and come to their own conclusions. I don't want to be responsible for brainwashing anyone, even if it's with the truth. lol There's more value in people learning things for their self and coming to their own conclusions.

    - Brian
     

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