Sarno's Theory Is Wrong

[mikeinlondon]

"and here lies the biggest challenge I have on my TMS journey ie how to live one’s life in the catastrophe of the symptoms."

My suggestion is to first recognize the desperation - notice it, and don't do anything at all with it.
Ways to train yourself: you don't need to use one method, you can experiment and try multiple ways. I don't find one method works for myself. I've got a lot of old habits and false beliefs to work through and I like to approach things from various angles.
1. Claire Weekes float method
2. notice the desperation and catastrophic thinking and just let it be
3. follow the catastrophic thinking - just let all those thoughts blossom in your mind and notice where you have truth and where you have false beliefs. Thoughts are not your truths. They are just thoughts - crap the mind generates because that's it's job. Slowly you'll begin to see what is absurd and what you hold dear. Perhaps the things you hold dear are also not your real truth...which is what things like journaling can help you to bring to the forward.
4. Use purposeful distraction: not to avoid emotions but to keep your mind from going down the same path. Living in fear and being scared isn't an emotion - it's a state of mind, so you can turn your mind from that stuff by investing your interests elsewhere.
5. Notice your personality traits and begin deciding what does and does not serve you. Does being perfect about turning your mind from every single negative thought serve you? Big Key - you don't need to turn your mind from every single negative thought! You simply need some balance - which right now means you tip the scale towards less negativity to train your mind but it doesn't mean you get rid of every single difficult thought. You change your reaction to these thoughts, but you don't have to erase them. Our first though is often a reaction. It's split second "OH NO" - but what you do next is what you have control over. Instead of "OH MY G*D, this is HORRIBLE and now I've made it worse by FOCUSING on it" you might be "OMG" and then "well, there's a reaction!, let's see where this goes right now in this moment if I take a few deep breaths and move on with my day".

Give yourself some grace, search for some peace in your mind. Simply STOP searching and researching this medical stuff. If your mind is busy and feels the need to research and search, do it with something that is a hobby or interesting outside of this physical fixation. to focus on things other than TMS).

Monte used to be a member of the TMS Wiki and had a great blog. He termed his method of TMS work as Thinking Clean. His approach to mindset was to note that mindset has a huge influence on the nervous system, and your "psychic" or "spiritual" energy.
Here's Monte taking about his method (as I said, his website is now down, but you can get the gyst from this video) https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/tms-think-clean-the-transforming-theory-for-tms.4668/

I can't find all his posts right now, but I can find a link to one of his videos explaining his method (his website is no longer functional, and he's moved on in life

@Sita has made wonderful posts about how she lives her life and it's very much in accordance to Monte's methods of "Thinking clean".

No Dr. Google at all. No following your mind down the rabbit hole of your obsessions. If you are a person who obsesses, do it about some sort of actual interesting hobby or professional endeavor ... something that benefits you as a person instead of feeds the TMS beast.

For at least a time, avoid a lot of news, gaming, music, movies, fiction and non-fiction which are full of violence and negative rhetoric. You want to tip your scale towards less negativity to feed off of. This does not mean avoiding your feelings and emotions - and you will certainly be able to add back some of these things in your life...but now is the time to notice how they are effecting you.

There is loads more, these are just a few main points he would make and they have all helped change my mindset over time.

Thank you, this is very good advice!

 

[BloodMoon]

TMS, especially severe cases, require a multi modality approach.

I partially agree with that because (having so called 'fibromyalgia', which Sarno said was the severest form of TMS, plus a myriad of other symptoms, a traumatic childhood having been brought up by a narcissistic mother and a distant father who considered me a nuisance, and other awful stuff that happened to me that I won't go into detail about here) I've gone from being bedridden to where I am now solely because I've read about and tried out a lot of mind/body/TMS work approaches on my own and some of that 'mud' that I've 'thrown at the wall' has stuck and worked... I therefore intend to just carry on 'throwing' more such 'mud on the wall' until I eventually lose all my symptoms. Personally, I more than very much doubt that I need EMDR, hypnotherapy, reiki or anything or anyone else like a coach/therapist/psychologist to get there... and I more than surmise that that is actually the case for you too. So, why not take Diana-M's advice and get and use the book that she has just recommended to you (a book that I also rate highly) and get going with throwing some 'mud' at your own 'wall'?

 

[mikeinlondon]

I partially agree with that because (having so called 'fibromyalgia', which Sarno said was the severest form of TMS, plus a myriad of other symptoms, a traumatic childhood being been brought up by a narcissistic mother and a distant father who considered me a nuisance, and other awful stuff that happened to me that I won't go into detail about here) I've gone from being bedridden to where I am now solely because I've read about and tried out a hell of a lot of mind/body/TMS work approaches on my own and some of that 'mud' that I've 'thrown at the wall' has stuck and worked... I therefore intend to just carry on 'throwing' more such 'mud on the wall' until I eventually lose all my symptoms. Personally, I more than very much doubt that I need EMDR, hypnotherapy, reiki or anything or anyone else like a coach/therapist/psychologist to get there... and I more than surmise that that is actually the case for you too. So, why not take Diana-M's advice and get and use the book that she has just recommended to you (a book that I also rate highly) and get going with throwing some 'mud' at your own 'wall'?

Thank you both for that book recommendation, I’m reading thru the reviews and it looks like a good read! I do wonder, as cactus says, whether it’s worth reading up about our condition or, like she says, just learn to live your life and don’t obsess about TMS. I had a hypno session yesterday and during the session I was asked why I’m going through what I’m going through. My mind responded with saying it’s to protect me and keep me safe. The hypno then said is that the case or are you (to my subconscious) trying to punish Mike? There was no reply and I’ve been feeling like rubbish today. Is it possible that there is an inner conflict between the conscious and subconscious? I do feel as if I’m being punished but at other times I feel my subconscious is very scared and frightened like something has shaken it. I cannot seem to relax like I must be on guard 24x7 and it feels like torture. Perhaps the book will enlighten me. I do feel that the only way out of this is taking Cactus’s advice and just try to live as normal life as possible but then Helmut et. al. Says what you resist persists … if your mind is asking you to research, read etc and you don’t do that isn’t that a form of resistance? It’s so confusing. These days I just allow and engage in life as best as I can. It’s so hard -

 

[BloodMoon]

Thank you both for that book recommendation, I’m reading thru the reviews and it looks like a good read! I do wonder, as cactus says, whether it’s worth reading up about our condition or, like she says, just learn to live your life and don’t obsess about TMS. I had a hypno session yesterday and during the session I was asked why I’m going through what I’m going through. My mind responded with saying it’s to protect me and keep me safe. The hypno then said is that the case or are you (to my subconscious) trying to punish Mike? There was no reply and I’ve been feeling like rubbish today. Is it possible that there is an inner conflict between the conscious and subconscious? I do feel as if I’m being punished but at other times I feel my subconscious is very scared and frightened like something has shaken it. I cannot seem to relax like I must be on guard 24x7 and it feels like torture. Perhaps the book will enlighten me. I do feel that the only way out of this is taking Cactus’s advice and just try to live as normal life as possible but then Helmut et. al. Says what you resist persists … if your mind is asking you to research, read etc and you don’t do that isn’t that a form of resistance? It’s so confusing. These days I just allow and engage in life as best as I can. It’s so hard -

Cactus is right to recommend getting on with normal life as best you can despite symptoms. Other than that I would suggest to pick one thing at a time to concentrate on doing (like committing to trying out, with patience, the recommendations in the book Diana-M recommended). I didn't throw all of the mud at my wall all at the same time because it's just too much.

 

[Rusty Red]

My nerdy scientific brain still thinks Sarno was on top of it. So much of the things that have branched out now just don't seem as....authentic to me? I don't know. I know PRT is the big thing now, but I still fall back to the old ways and beliefs most of the time. I've tried venturing into the newer practices and they just don't resonate.

 

[BloodMoon]

My nerdy scientific brain still thinks Sarno was on top of it. So much of the things that have branched out now just don't seem as....authentic to me? I don't know. I know PRT is the big thing now, but I still fall back to the old ways and beliefs most of the time. I've tried venturing into the newer practices and they just don't resonate.

And the $64,000 dollar question is... how is that working out for you? If you're not stuck and are either symptom free or getting there, then you don't need to look elsewhere. For some of us we hit a roadblock with doing Sarno only (no matter that we follow his instructions and no matter how many times we read his books over and over again and understand and do what he advises) so it's not surprising that we look elsewhere... and, very thankfully, many people do improve and get symptom free with PRT.

 

[Rusty Red]

And the $64,000 dollar question is... how is that working out for you? If you're not stuck and are either symptom free or getting there, then you don't need to look elsewhere. For some of us we hit a roadblock with doing Sarno only (no matter that we follow his instructions and no matter how many times we read his books over and over again and understand and do what he advises) so it's not surprising that we look elsewhere... and, very thankfully, many people do improve and get symptom free with PRT.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, only that it doesn't resonate personally with me. Overall I pretty much gave up on any TMS practice for myself, and I'm just doing what I can do as I can do it. I'm not banking on symptom-free anymore. I'm happy for anyone to get relief in any way they can.

 

[Diana-M]

Perhaps the book will enlighten me.

Mike, I think the book will enlighten you on the specific questions you mentioned.

In my opinion, this takes living life the best you can AND working on healing. My mind is blown at all the things I’ve learned, from—like @BloodMoon says—all the “mud” I’ve been throwing at the wall. And ALL of it has helped me. Sometimes I try something, and it doesn’t really resonate (as you say, @Rusty Red), but then later, I circle back, and it does. It’s like there’s some kind of a sequential order for my ability to learn what is needed.

Before I came to the forum, I studied Sarno every day for at least an hour a day, for six months. I did everything he said. I made flash cards and memorized passages of two of his books. I journaled. I soaked it all in and applied it. But nothing. So I decided to follow his advice, which is to get therapy if nothing works. So I got 3 years of it and worked harder than any of my other previous times in therapy. Still, nothing.

Now, 18 months of study here on the forum, and trying to live life, I’m only once in a while getting major physical relief. But my underlying symptoms have slowly been subsiding because of ALL of it. All the rage journaling. All the study about my traits. All the study of my circumstances. All the pain reprocessing training. And especially, from all efforts to heal my nervous system. And as Claire Weekes says, this takes time.

I’m really wondering if those who heal fast with Sarno have disregulated nervous systems? I’ve never heard @Baseball65 talk of having anxiety. Instead, he seems to have always been in touch with his anger. I think anger is more healthy and helpful. Anxiety is more from a helpless place. It’s a lot to fix. Maybe that’s why Sarno doesn’t work right away when you are anxious? Sometimes I also think it depends on your past and whatever you’ve been through. These things take time. And, sometimes current circumstances just plain suck for keeping you feeling safe. You have to rise above them somehow. And I know this is possible! But, it also takes time.

It’s all pretty complicated. But the point is: people are getting better—and we can, too! I haven’t given up on Sarno. In the past year, I keep unpeeling new layers of anger. Maybe one of these days I’ll hit the jackpot and unlock that magic door of what angers me and causes my symptoms. I can’t imagine what I haven’t already discovered. But you never know?! Plus, new stuff to be angry about comes all the time, so you have to keep on it. I’m not throwing any option out the window.

Sarno said to live life like nothing’s wrong. I have to admit, as I hobble around with my walker, it still feels like something’s wrong. As I can barely get down the steps, I’m not feeling like I’m living at my best. But I am living! And I can try to add more ways to live better and do more. Pain Reprocessing Training and somatic tracking are actually helping with this. It teaches you to detach the pain from your feelings ABOUT the pain. Very effective. Every little thing helps!

 

[Cactusflower]

Let’s get this clear. I never said to only get on with your life.
You also do the work.
Operative word is “YOU” which, frankly, @mikeinlondon you are still avoiding. None of the folks you are engaging know about TMS work or current and proven chronic pain science unless they have been trained in it.
When I said to stop searching I clearly said to stop looking for PHYSICAL pointers, causes and elements to your chronic symptoms.

 

[mikeinlondon]

Mike, I think the book will enlighten you on the specific questions you mentioned.

In my opinion, this takes living life the best you can AND working on healing. My mind is blown at all the things I’ve learned, from—like @BloodMoon says—all the “mud” I’ve been throwing at the wall. And ALL of it has helped me. Sometimes I try something, and it doesn’t really resonate (as you say, @Rusty Red), but then later, I circle back, and it does. It’s like there’s some kind of a sequential order for my ability to learn what is needed.

Before I came to the forum, I studied Sarno every day for at least an hour a day, for six months. I did everything he said. I made flash cards and memorized passages of two of his books. I journaled. I soaked it all in and applied it. But nothing. So I decided to follow his advice, which is to get therapy if nothing works. So I got 3 years of it and worked harder than any of my other previous times in therapy. Still, nothing.

Now, 18 months of study here on the forum, and trying to live life, I’m only once in a while getting major physical relief. But my underlying symptoms have slowly been subsiding because of ALL of it. All the rage journaling. All the study about my traits. All the study of my circumstances. All the pain reprocessing training. And especially, from all efforts to heal my nervous system. And as Claire Weekes says, this takes time.

I’m really wondering if those who heal fast with Sarno have disregulated nervous systems? I’ve never heard @Baseball65 talk of having anxiety. Instead, he seems to have always been in touch with his anger. I think anger is more healthy and helpful. Anxiety is more from a helpless place. It’s a lot to fix. Maybe that’s why Sarno doesn’t work right away when you are anxious? Sometimes I also think it depends on your past and whatever you’ve been through. These things take time. And, sometimes current circumstances just plain suck for keeping you feeling safe. You have to rise above them somehow. And I know this is possible! But, it also takes time.

It’s all pretty complicated. But the point is: people are getting better—and we can, too! I haven’t give up on Sarno. In the past year, I keep unpeeling new layers of anger. Maybe one of these days I’ll hit the jackpot and unlock that magic door of what angers me and causes my symptoms. I can’t imagine what I haven’t already discovered. But you never know?! Plus, new stuff comes all the time, so you have to keep on it. I’m not throwing any option out the window.

Sarno said to live life like nothing’s wrong. I have to admit, as I hobble around with my walker, it still feels like something’s wrong. As I can barely get down the steps, I’m not feeling like I’m living at my best. But I am living! And I can try to add more ways to live better and do more. Pain Reprocessing Training and somatic tracking are actually helping with this. It teaches you to detach the pain from your feelings ABOUT the pain. Very effective. Every little thing helps!

Bingo! I came to the same conclusion as you recently. I think Sarno's theory can work for those with TMS pains. However, for those of us with dysregulated nervous systems his working model falls short. I believe I have severe Central Sensitisation where I feel psychosomatic anxiety (this isn't the usual psychological anxiety). It's not just pain, living life in fight or flight everyday is exhausting. I can live life with mild to moderate pain from time to time but living life with pain and CNS sensitisation is exhausting. I'm not able to fully relax and I always feel on edge like a bull dog is running towards me at 100 MPH. I feel like I'm withdrawing from Benzos everyday since this began and those who just have pain have no idea what living in fight/flight feels like.

 

[mikeinlondon]

Let’s get this clear. I never said to only get on with your life.
You also do the work.
Operative word is “YOU” which, frankly, @mikeinlondon you are still avoiding. None of the folks you are engaging know about TMS work or current and proven chronic pain science unless they have been trained in it.
When I said to stop searching I clearly said to stop looking for PHYSICAL pointers, causes and elements to your chronic symptoms.

I do not have any physical pointers to my chronic symptoms - I know that 100%. All the work I'm doing is Mind to Body be it hypno, reiki or EMDR. All the reading I've been doing is in relation to calming down a nervous system that's highly sensitised. I don't think I'm avoiding doing the work. I've done journaling, hypno daily where I send hearts to my body and my inner children, daily meditation, yoga, self love etc. I'm not sure what other work you are referring to but I'm definitely not avoiding. My only challenge is trying to go back to normal life and work but I'm exhausted. Helmut said he went through 2 months of insomnia and I've been dealing with this for over a year! I don't think that's a fair criticism.

 

[BloodMoon]

I'm not banking on symptom-free anymore.

And the irony is that you'll probably find that you'll eventually end up TMS symptom-free! I say this because the biggest improvements I made was when I had hope of improving but didn't dream that it was possible to get to where I am now (from bedridden to functioning pretty well by comparison).

From 'The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Workbook: Using the Brain's Neuroplasticity to Break the Cycle of Chronic Pain' by Blackstone and Sinaiko...

"The sneaky truth? Learning to respond to pain in an outcome independent manner is what ultimately causes the pain to go away. Maybe not this instant but over the long term, this new way of relating to unpleasant sensations is the secret to deactivating pain pathways. On the other hand, if making pain go away is the outcome you’re set on, paradoxically, it’ll make it that much harder to actually achieve. Understandably, you want out of pain. That is why you are here, starting this workbook. But the tighter you hold onto that goal, the further away it will be. We will explain more about why this is true in the next chapter, when we explore the neuroscientific underpinnings of chronic pain. But for now, suffice it to say that learning to relax your grip on the outcome is one of
the best things you can do for your own recovery. Easier said than done, we know."

 

[Diana-M]

@mikeinlondon
Maybe you could replace your EMDR therapist? I know it’s hard. I’ve had a few therapists leave or betray my trust and it really hurts. Usually it took me a long time to get over it. But maybe you could not be like me and just get a new one soon? I think EMDR is really powerful. It’s been highly recommended for TMSers. That’s great you’ve been doing it.

 

[Cactusflower]

"hypno, reiki or EMDR"

None of this is TMS work at all. Only EMDR is recommended by TMS specialists as a means (as are a few others).
Reiki and hyponotherapy rely on someone else to "make" you calm down. They are doing the work as you are completely passive in the process.
You're simply still at the very beginning of your journey, still searching for answers outside of yourself. The answer as Sarno states is always inside yourself, and only you can be the one to do the work and to find it. I'm completely confident you can do that, if you weren't so afraid of doing it and doing it alone.
There are a lot of questions to ask, and asking yourself why you "do this to yourself" is not one. It's one of the main questions Sarno is totally against. His book is an outline of how this is NOT your fault, at all. None of this is your fault. You don't cause the pain however you are unfortunately responsible for resolving it, simply because nobody else can get into your brain and do it for you.
I have been where you are in this process and you'll just need to find your way, but in many ways you are absolutely avoiding the "work", much of which is to stop searching so hard and trying to find someone, anyone other than yourself to help you and just let things be, knowing that it will eventually settle and that you are OK. Even if you don't feel OK (which is the TMS mechanism) you are absolutely OK. Stop focusing and repeating on "sensitized nervous system" because once again, you become a victim to "what is wrong" with it, when your nervous system is actually doing what it's supposed to do if you are in "danger" and are "terrified". The though process actually shoots you in the foot and keeps you there. Constantly reading about "the nervous system" is in deed looking at the physical - because the nervous system is a physical thing...this is simply another TMS mind pitfall. I say this with tough love and with complete understanding.
Find something else to put your focus on.

What are your interests in life? What has been a passion of yours? Reading books about specific subjects, ren faire reenactment? Cooking? Decorating your house for Halloween crazier than anyone else in the neighborhood (my neighbor!! , sailing, collecting running shoes....what have you loved?

 

[Sita]

If you have no idea what you like doing now, just think about what you used to love doing when you were a kid. It always helps...

 

[mikeinlondon]

"hypno, reiki or EMDR"

None of this is TMS work at all. Only EMDR is recommended by TMS specialists as a means (as are a few others).
Reiki and hyponotherapy rely on someone else to "make" you calm down. They are doing the work as you are completely passive in the process.
You're simply still at the very beginning of your journey, still searching for answers outside of yourself. The answer as Sarno states is always inside yourself, and only you can be the one to do the work and to find it. I'm completely confident you can do that, if you weren't so afraid of doing it and doing it alone.
There are a lot of questions to ask, and asking yourself why you "do this to yourself" is not one. It's one of the main questions Sarno is totally against. His book is an outline of how this is NOT your fault, at all. None of this is your fault. You don't cause the pain however you are unfortunately responsible for resolving it, simply because nobody else can get into your brain and do it for you.
I have been where you are in this process and you'll just need to find your way, but in many ways you are absolutely avoiding the "work", much of which is to stop searching so hard and trying to find someone, anyone other than yourself to help you and just let things be, knowing that it will eventually settle and that you are OK. Even if you don't feel OK (which is the TMS mechanism) you are absolutely OK. Stop focusing and repeating on "sensitized nervous system" because once again, you become a victim to "what is wrong" with it, when your nervous system is actually doing what it's supposed to do if you are in "danger" and are "terrified". The though process actually shoots you in the foot and keeps you there. Constantly reading about "the nervous system" is in deed looking at the physical - because the nervous system is a physical thing...this is simply another TMS mind pitfall. I say this with tough love and with complete understanding.
Find something else to put your focus on.

What are your interests in life? What has been a passion of yours? Reading books about specific subjects, ren faire reenactment? Cooking? Decorating your house for Halloween crazier than anyone else in the neighborhood (my neighbor!! , sailing, collecting running shoes....what have you loved?

This is really deep and there are golden nuggets here. I think I understand what you mean. Are you basically saying that I live my life as if I don’t have any “health” issues as my nervous system is working as intended? So when my nervous system identifies that I’m no longer threatened by the symptoms and I’m enjoying life then the nervous system will naturally calm down? I think that’s what you’re saying. In essence the work is to allow TMS but keep it in the background as noise. The foreground of one’s life should be their hobbies and passions then naturally all will be okay. Is that what you’re saying?

 

[Fal]

This is really deep and there are golden nuggets here. I think I understand what you mean. Are you basically saying that I live my life as if I don’t have any “health” issues as my nervous system is working as intended? So when my nervous system identifies that I’m no longer threatened by the symptoms and I’m enjoying life then the nervous system will naturally calm down? I think that’s what you’re saying. In essence the work is to allow TMS but keep it in the background as noise. The foreground of one’s life should be their hobbies and passions then naturally all will be okay. Is that what you’re saying?

Exactly that, got it in one.

It might be an annoyance throughout your recovery but dont show it any attention

 

[Cactusflower]

This is really deep and there are golden nuggets here. I think I understand what you mean. Are you basically saying that I live my life as if I don’t have any “health” issues as my nervous system is working as intended? So when my nervous system identifies that I’m no longer threatened by the symptoms and I’m enjoying life then the nervous system will naturally calm down? I think that’s what you’re saying. In essence the work is to allow TMS but keep it in the background as noise. The foreground of one’s life should be their hobbies and passions then naturally all will be okay. Is that what you’re saying?

Yes, over time.
And during this time, we also do the TMS work - like addressing Sarno’s root cause of TMS. You might like to review the post @BloodMoon made just now.
It is simple, yet in some ways not so simple.
Ignoring is not at all a strategy, yet many people feel getting back to daily life excludes taking time to do the work and to pay attention to ALL the things Sarno says.

 

[BloodMoon]

Thanks for the mention of my post, @Cactusflower.
@mikeinlondon (or for anyone else who may be possibly interested in it) it can be found here: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...to-cover-most-mind-body-approach-bases.30322/

 

[mikeinlondon]

Thanks for the mention of my post, @Cactusflower.
@mikeinlondon (or for anyone else who may be possibly interested in it) it can be found here: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...to-cover-most-mind-body-approach-bases.30322/

Ive seen this mentioned before many times and in the link provided that I must acknowledge that my brain is protecting me from perceived danger or threat. I understand, for example, in people with fibro movement is painful and the mind may be protecting them by causing them to slow down. However, I have no pain in movement, just static pressure on my skin is painful so sitting and lying down is very uncomfortable. I feel like I’m being pushed to be a soldier 24x7 on guard duty. Cannot sit or lie down in comfort. How is this protecting me? Does the mind actually believe a tiger is running towards me at 100MPH and I must be on guard? It’s exhausting living like this and the brain is just increasing the risk of death by cancers by exhausting me. This doesn’t feel like protection. It feels like a slow death. Do you truly believe the mind believes it’s protecting us?