Sarno's Theory Is Wrong

[mikeinlondon]

I heard on this forum that Sarno's theory of oxygen deprivation has been proven to be invalid due to research:

From Wiki: "His [Sarno] theory suggests that the unconscious mind uses the autonomic nervous system to decrease blood flow to muscles, nerves or tendons, resulting in oxygen deprivation (temporary micro-ischemia) and metabolite accumulation, experienced as pain in the affected tissues."

However ... this study shows that Sarno's theory may actually be valid:
https://www.fibromyalgiafund.org/why-fibromyalgia-muscles-hurt/

Key Points:
1. “Oxygen deprived muscle tissue brought on by internal pressure is an important source of muscle pain in fibromyalgia,”

2. "Other studies document hypoxia in fibromyalgia patients but with no clear explanation"

Fibromyalgia is a Mind to Body Disorder so this finding is pertinent.

I had always believed that Sarno's theory was credible and these finding cements his theory.

 

[Diana-M]

I liked this line in the article: “If you feel like your muscles are squeezed so tightly that they hurt – like the cuff on a blood pressure kit – this finding confirms your suspicions.” I have actually described my legs as being squeezed by blood pressure cuffs. On the same token, when I meditate for close to an hour, my legs and feet start tingling, like they are waking up from sleep— or getting more oxygen.

 

[louaci]

oh dear, that title certainly gave me a Monday morning sinking feeling, lol!

 

[BloodMoon]

I had always believed that Sarno's theory was credible

Me too. I think the brain is capable of causing/initiating hypoxia and that it's at least one of the ways it uses to cause pain and disable TMSers (but that said, personally I think the nervous system and conditioning more than probably have a great deal to do with it too).

I was diagnosed with 'fibromyalgia' and I find the article you posted very depressing as it doesn't say that mind/body work is the remedy, the suggestion is that fibromyalgia sufferers need muscle relaxants and possibly other drugs (and supplements) to relieve high pressure in the muscles. One thing's for sure, leastways from my experience anyway, just like the article says, with so called 'fibromyalgia' if you stop moving every day (like when you're otherwise sick and need to take to your bed for a while with flu or something) you pay for it with an increase of undue muscle pain and stiffness, often massively.

I'm a lot better than I used to be (have gone from being bedridden and housebound to functioning pretty well by comparison) and I hope to eventually be fully functioning, and for the most part free from symptoms like a 'normal' person would be, sometime in the not too distant future... So, whilst I know that it may be a case of burying my head in the sand, I really do wish I'd never read that article because I find it so bloomin' hope-deflating! Years ago, before I went down the mind/body route I asked to try muscle relaxants and my doctors would not prescribe them for me and the whole premise obviously needs further research regarding what other drugs could help and/or could be developed to treat high muscle pressure in 'fibromyalgia'... I'll almost certainly be dead by the time they do that, that is, if they ever do it.

The magnesium and co-enzyme Q10 suggested in the article did nothing to improve my 'fibromyalgia' when I tried them years ago though... so I'll concentrate on remembering that because that actually gives me hope for a full recovery from solely doing mind/body work.

 

[Diana-M]

I find the article you posted very depressing as it doesn't say that mind/body work is the remedy, the suggestion is that fibromyalgia sufferers need muscle relaxants and possibly other drugs

The only reason they don’t suggest mind-body is because they have bought into the Western medicine mentality. That perspective Only thinks in terms of drugs as a solution. (Or surgery, as the case may be). But, we know otherwise.

This is a great interview i stumbled upon of a physician who used to work for Kaiser (one of the most forward thinking healthcare providers in the US.) She left Kaiser to go into practice as a TMS physician. She explains how doctors are trained to only look for drug solutions or surgery.

 

[mikeinlondon]

The only reason they don’t suggest mind-body is because they have bought into the Western medicine mentality. That perspective Only thinks in terms of drugs as a solution. (Or surgery, as the case may be). We know otherwise.

This is a great interview i stumbled upon of a physician who used to work for Kaiser (one of the most forward thinking healthcare providers in the US.) She left Kaiser to go into practice as a TMS physician. She explains how doctors are trained to only look for drug solutions or surgery.

I agree with you Diana. I read the article from the perspective of Mind Body and it gave me hope. Essentially, what ultimately controls our muscles? Our subconscious minds! The solution to conditions like fibromyalgia are in our minds. Indeed, there are western solutions but these are workarounds, they do not fix the root cause of the issue. Sarno was spot on!

 

[Cactusflower]

I think Sarno was on the right track, there just wasn’t an understanding of the simplicity of how our breath can be compromised with anxiety. I never believed the oxygen deprivation theory - but I do believe that in our mental tension we alter our physical tension and one link is that an exhale longer than our inhale triggers the relaxation response if our nervous system is in a state that we can influence it (it took me time to really get there). This is one reason why meditation is so effective.
When we stop moving all together, so much happens to both the mind and the body., and sometimes there are real physiological elements.
The key is to be able to push that aside while you move forward with your TMS mental healing. Having faith all is “right” and what has been put on pause will completely resume in time. Researching this, fixating and worrying about it is a form of physical fixation. As you progress through your TMS experience your need to know these things fades. It becomes unimportant in comparison to living a full life in the current moment.

 

[mikeinlondon]

[It becomes unimportant in comparison to living a full life in the current moment.[/]

Perfectly said … and here lies the biggest challenge I have on my TMS journey ie how to live one’s life in the catastrophe of the symptoms.

 

[Diana-M]

here lies the biggest challenge I have on my TMS journey ie how to live one’s life in the catastrophe of the symptoms.

Me too! Although, I’ve slowly built a pretty good life for myself, if it involves sitting and no pain. The hard part is enjoying doing things standing and walking, while in pain. For me, pushing through the pain to do things isn’t giving me as much relief as the meditation. Sometimes after meditation, I feel like I have a whole different body. Less stiff. More usable. Less pain. But it’s only temporary, at this point. I agree with @Cactusflower — we don’t realize our breathing is set on anxiety mode, until you start checking it. I was surprised to find my breathing is almost always shallow and fast—no matter the time of day. Even when I think I’m calm. And this rapid breathing tells my brain I’m in danger. I’m trying to work on slowing it —to reset it, but it takes time. I’m learning a lot about this in a really good book—The Secret Language of the Body. It teaches all about nervous system regulation. And more.

 

[BloodMoon]

The only reason they don’t suggest mind-body is because they have bought into the Western medicine mentality. That perspective Only thinks in terms of drugs as a solution. (Or surgery, as the case may be).

Exactly my point!

She explains how doctors are trained to only look for drug solutions or surgery.

Blimey, tell me something I didn't know! lol (I guess the video will likely be helpful for newbies though.)

 

[Cactusflower]

"and here lies the biggest challenge I have on my TMS journey ie how to live one’s life in the catastrophe of the symptoms."

My suggestion is to first recognize the desperation - notice it, and don't do anything at all with it.
Ways to train yourself: you don't need to use one method, you can experiment and try multiple ways. I don't find one method works for myself. I've got a lot of old habits and false beliefs to work through and I like to approach things from various angles.
1. Claire Weekes float method
2. notice the desperation and catastrophic thinking and just let it be
3. follow the catastrophic thinking - just let all those thoughts blossom in your mind and notice where you have truth and where you have false beliefs. Thoughts are not your truths. They are just thoughts - crap the mind generates because that's it's job. Slowly you'll begin to see what is absurd and what you hold dear. Perhaps the things you hold dear are also not your real truth...which is what things like journaling can help you to bring to the forward.
4. Use purposeful distraction: not to avoid emotions but to keep your mind from going down the same path. Living in fear and being scared isn't an emotion - it's a state of mind, so you can turn your mind from that stuff by investing your interests elsewhere.
5. Notice your personality traits and begin deciding what does and does not serve you. Does being perfect about turning your mind from every single negative thought serve you? Big Key - you don't need to turn your mind from every single negative thought! You simply need some balance - which right now means you tip the scale towards less negativity to train your mind but it doesn't mean you get rid of every single difficult thought. You change your reaction to these thoughts, but you don't have to erase them. Our first though is often a reaction. It's split second "OH NO" - but what you do next is what you have control over. Instead of "OH MY G*D, this is HORRIBLE and now I've made it worse by FOCUSING on it" you might be "OMG" and then "well, there's a reaction!, let's see where this goes right now in this moment if I take a few deep breaths and move on with my day".

Give yourself some grace, search for some peace in your mind. Simply STOP searching and researching this medical stuff. If your mind is busy and feels the need to research and search, do it with something that is a hobby or interesting outside of this physical fixation. to focus on things other than TMS).

Monte used to be a member of the TMS Wiki and had a great blog. He termed his method of TMS work as Thinking Clean. His approach to mindset was to note that mindset has a huge influence on the nervous system, and your "psychic" or "spiritual" energy.
Here's Monte taking about his method (as I said, his website is now down, but you can get the gyst from this video) https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/tms-think-clean-the-transforming-theory-for-tms.4668/

I can't find all his posts right now, but I can find a link to one of his videos explaining his method (his website is no longer functional, and he's moved on in life

@Sita has made wonderful posts about how she lives her life and it's very much in accordance to Monte's methods of "Thinking clean".

No Dr. Google at all. No following your mind down the rabbit hole of your obsessions. If you are a person who obsesses, do it about some sort of actual interesting hobby or professional endeavor ... something that benefits you as a person instead of feeds the TMS beast.

For at least a time, avoid a lot of news, gaming, music, movies, fiction and non-fiction which are full of violence and negative rhetoric. You want to tip your scale towards less negativity to feed off of. This does not mean avoiding your feelings and emotions - and you will certainly be able to add back some of these things in your life...but now is the time to notice how they are effecting you.

There is loads more, these are just a few main points he would make and they have all helped change my mindset over time.

 

[BloodMoon]

Give yourself some grace, search for some peace in your mind. Simply STOP searching and researching this medical stuff. If your mind is busy and feels the need to research and search, do it with something that is a hobby or interesting outside of this physical fixation. to focus on things other than TMS).

Amen, to this advice in particular!

 

[Fal]

Ive recently got in to Joe Dispenzas work and its pretty much the same thought process about how our minds can cause disease and we have the power to change it, i do his meditations a lot, someone shared the whole lot so thankfully dont need to pay for any but they are exactly what needs to be done and i believe each and every one of his success stories.

 

[BloodMoon]

Ive recently got in to Joe Dispenzas work and its pretty much the same thought process about how our minds can cause disease and we have the power to change it, i do his meditations a lot, someone shared the whole lot so thankfully dont need to pay for any but they are exactly what needs to be done and i believe each and every one of his success stories.

This figures, and made me laugh out loud. Why? Because I was remembering the sentiments you expressed regarding Helmut and Sam on other forum threads... along with remembering that about 3 months ago Sam did a whole (over an hour long) YouTube video dedicated to criticising Joe Dispenza entitled 'Joe Dispenza talks nonsense'. I'll say no more about this though because to discuss it would be going off the topic of this thread and tbh I don't know enough about Joe Dispenza's work to voice an opinion (plus I didn't bother to watch the whole of Sam's video).

 

[Fal]

This figures, and made me laugh out loud. Why? Because I was remembering the sentiments you expressed regarding Helmut and Sam on other forum threads... along with remembering that about 3 months ago Sam did a whole (over an hour long) YouTube video dedicated to criticising Joe Dispenza entitled 'Joe Dispenza talks nonsense'. I'll say no more about this though because to discuss it would be going off the topic of this thread and tbh I don't know enough about Joe Dispenza's work to voice an opinion (plus I didn't bother to watch the whole of Sam's video).

Without going off topic too much, if you just listen to his videos he explains what every other TMS coach says about how the brain and the nervous system works and essentially how to heal. His main thing is obviously meditation which by the sounds of it Sam doesn't like and neither does Dan Buglio. If i had seen Dispenza first before learning about TMS then i wouldn't have believed it either.

 

[BloodMoon]

the biggest challenge I have on my TMS journey ie how to live one’s life in the catastrophe of the symptoms.

You need to change the label you're choosing to use from “catastrophe” to “temporary challenge”— it's not denial—it’s an active part of breaking the cycle and supporting recovery.

 

[mikeinlondon]

You need to change the label you're choosing to use from “catastrophe” to “temporary challenge”— it's not denial—it’s an active part of breaking the cycle and supporting recovery.

Noted, thanks. TMS, especially severe cases, require a multi modality approach. I’ve been using EMDR, hypno, Sarno’s work, Reiki. It’s a complex condition and one solution isn’t going to aid me to recover. My EMDR psychologist says I should only focus on one and she has no tolerance to discuss with me integrated approaches. She is completely against it and is now refusing to work with me after so much time I invested with her. When I talk about catastrophe I’m referring to the “professionals” who have turned out to be unsupportive and unskilled in severe cases of TMS. But perhaps I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that no one other than yourself can help you recover from TMS symptoms. You’re basically on your own to navigate this and that’s what I also mean by catastrophe in that there is very little support from our communities on this condition. So although TMS is a temporary challenge the lack of support from professionals and social communities is, in my opinion, a catastrophe.

 

[Diana-M]

She is completely against it and is now refusing to work with me after so much time I invested with her.

Mike, that’s too bad. I’m so sorry to hear that. Sorry you have to weather that disappointment.

I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that no one other than yourself can help you recover from TMS symptoms.

I think you’re right. And you can’t get discouraged along the way.

the lack of support from professionals and social communities is, in my opinion, a catastrophe.

I guess because the rest of the world isn’t into mind-body yet. We are ahead of the curve, so that makes it a little more lonely. And even in TMS support groups like this, there is an underlying tension over who/what is right. Human nature to fight about what is ”right.” I think just loving people and comforting them can also go a long way. It’s pretty lonely to have TMS, and it takes quite a while to wrap your head around all that it entails. It also takes quite awhile to navigate and process the losses it forces on you. Even if temporary—they are painful losses. And it’s so easy to get frightened and even to lose hope. So when you finally round the bend to KNOWING in your heart that you will get better, you’ve really accomplished something—even if you don’t quite know exactly how that will happen. But you keep on following the journey. And you’re thankful for what you’ve learned so far. That’s where I see you now. And that’s really good! I think I’m there, too.

I will vouch that Sarno alone doesn’t heal everyone. And it’s not because we haven’t tried. By the way, you know how I’m always preaching Claire Weekes? This book on nervous system regulation I recently discovered, called The Secret Language of the Body, really takes it one step further. I’m very excited by what I’m learning. Just when I start to lose hope, something new and good comes my way.

 

[mikeinlondon]

Mike, that’s too bad. I’m so sorry to hear that. Sorry you have to weather that disappointment.

I think you’re right. And you can’t get discouraged along the way.

I guess because the rest of the world isn’t into mind-body yet. We are ahead of the curve, so that makes it a little more lonely. And even in TMS support groups like this, there is an underlying tension over who/what is right. Human nature to fight about what is ”right.” I think just loving people and comforting them can also go a long way. It’s pretty lonely to have TMS, and it takes quite a while to wrap your head around all that it entails. It also takes quite awhile to navigate and process the losses it forces on you. Even if temporary—they are painful losses. And it’s so easy to get frightened and even to lose hope. So when you finally round the bend to KNOWING in your heart that you will get better, you’ve really accomplished something—even if you don’t quite know exactly how that will happen. But you keep on following the journey. And you’re thankful for what you’ve learned so far. That’s where I see you now. And that’s really good! I think I’m there, too.

I will vouch that Sarno alone doesn’t heal everyone. And it’s not because we haven’t tried. By the way, you know how I’m always preaching Claire Weekes? This book on nervous system regulation I recently discovered through recommendations on the forum, called The Secret Language of the Body, really takes it one step further. I’m very excited by what I’m learning. Just when I start to lose hope, something new and good comes my way.

Bless you for your support, Diana. I’m having a really bad day and going to have a look at the Xmas trees and light. I love Xmas and it always cheers me up. Would you believe the Xmas decorations are already up in my local shopping mall????

 

[Diana-M]

Bless you for your support, Diana. I’m having a really bad day and going to have a look at the Xmas trees and light. I love Xmas and it always cheers me up. Would you believe the Xmas decorations are already up in my local shopping mall????

I like Christmas too. Wow—things are getting earlier and earlier. Life is too fast now. I hope that cheers you up a little.