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Pain scientist Lorimer Moseley is in pain himself

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by Birdie, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Lorimer Moseley is a famous pain scientists and author of the book explain pain (read it in German and although he does not know about TMS I found it to be very informative and good).
    Please have a look at this interesting article in L. Moseleys blog:

    Well, my English understanding is not as good as I wished, but as I understood it he now is in severe pain himself, or did I get it wrong? He hasn't got a clue why and I guess he never ever heard of TMS before and I feel the strong need to tell him about (in the blog below one can post suggestions), but perhaps someone with better English should do this :D

    I am very curious about your opinions!
    eric watson and Forest like this.
  2. Dr James Alexander

    Dr James Alexander TMS author and psychologist

    Birdie- as Moseley is an Australian 'pain expert' i sent him a nearly completed draft of my book, 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain', over a year ago. I got no reply- no interest from him at all. His approach to chronic pain is referred to as the neuromatrix model. While it is quite fascinating to learn how we can become neurologically sensitised to pain, my criticism has always been that i fail to see how it can help anyone over come chronic pain. Exact details (or at least good scientific hypothesis) of the specific nuts and bolts of the body in pain are simply not enough to help a person out of pain. I am yet to hear one person report that the neuromatrix model has eliminated or even reduced their pain- but biological scientists are very enthusiastic for it, and tend to view the TMS approach with contempt. It is interesting to learn that Moseley is now in chronic pain. He will learn (if he hasnt already) that his scientific knowledge of biology is almost completely irrelevant, and that if he ever wants to overcome his shoulder pain, he needs to look into the psychology of it (specifically, the unconscious psychology of it). He has the information to heal himself already (unless my draft book landed immediately in his waste paper bin- i suspect it could have). Rather than simply bad luck, or the misfortune of not having access to helpful information, his problem is a willful ignorance. He is emblematic of our messed up and self defeating culture. I hope the enthusiasts of the neuromatrix model (usually detractors of the TMS model) are watching his case with interest. It is a cruel but informative irony.

    this is what i have just posted on Lorimer Moseley's chat room- will see if it gets moderated out of existence? Hope i didnt sound too smug (not my intention).

    Lorimer- sorry to hear you are in pain. As a psychologist with many years experiences of successfully treating people in chronic pain (and being a former chronic pain sufferer myself), the criticism i have long had in regards to the neuromatrix model of chronic pain is that i am yet to see one person overcome the problem with this understanding. Scientific understanding does not equate with healing- it makes biological scientists feel good about their advanced state of knowledge, but it makes no real difference to the sufferers. I gather you are now finding this to be the case. Ditto for many/most of the physical treatments of chronic pain. I am surprised that you are pursuing these approaches, as i assumed you would know what the research says about the poor efficacy of physical treatments for chronic pain. You may remember that i sent you a draft copy of my book last year, 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain'? If you still have the copy, you might like to read it as it addresses exactly the type of problem you now have. I have seen many people (including myself) overcome chronic pain using this depth-psychology approach. If you threw my draft book out, please let me know and i will send you the final (now published) copy of the book for free. I would suggest now is a good time for you to investigate the psychological contributors to chronic pain.
    Neil, IrishSceptic, Enrique and 3 others like this.
  3. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Wow, Dr. James Alexander, I am glad to see you've already sent him all the informations needed to know everything about his pain condition. As you're a former pain sufferer and now a TMS therapist yourself your message should come along with a very high credibility.
    Now it is his turn to take the first steps into the TMS journey!
    Forest likes this.
  4. hecate105

    hecate105 Beloved Grand Eagle

    We all do have to walk a mile in painful moccasins to understand...!
  5. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    It's ironic that bio-mechanical models of how chronic pain develops and persists are quite interesting as descriptions of a process, but lack the one element that would make them really useful in developing a therapy to treat the condition: Why? What's that Alfred North Whitehead says about misplaced concreteness that only assigns ontological validity to matter located in spacial temporal co-ordinates? You just can't ignore that the original cause of the bio-mechanical chain of events leading to chronic pain is psychological and deeply emotional. If you don't tackle the underlying emotions, the pain will just keep reoccurring again and again in different forms and in different physical locations. Sort of like one of those shape-changing magicians in medieval romances.
  6. Forest

    Forest Beloved Grand Eagle

    That is very generous of you to reach out to Dr. Moseley like that. I hope he reads it. Nobody deserves to be in pain, especially when it could be cured by something as simple as reading a book.

    It's too bad to hear that he sounds closed minded. I read his blog post and was actually impressed by his thoughtfulness. For example:
    Within the TMS community we are very aware of how damaging medical imaging can be - it takes regular grey hair of the spine and makes us feel like we have come across something truly terrible. The nocebo effect kicks in and our pain gets far worse. It sounds like there are a lot of things that he doesn't get, but at least he he sees the beginning of the mind body connection. He also seemed to do a good job of seeing through the placebo effect of injections, which are completely useless against TMS (accept as a placebo):
    Moseley actually shows up in Unlearn Your Pain, p. 31 in my second edition copy:
    One has to feel very sorry for those poor people who are given the fibromyalgia diagnosis with no hope and don't know anything about TMS. No wonder they are angry!

    Anyway, thanks for letting us know about the post, Birdie, and thanks for the helpful information, Dr. Alexander. I very much hope he reads your book.
  7. Forest

    Forest Beloved Grand Eagle

    .... and before reading Dr. Sarno's books, it would have taken several days to type that much text because of my "Repetitive Strain Injuries". Now I do it in 10 minutes and don't even think about it. It's good to be free. :)
    Gigi and eric watson like this.
  8. Dr James Alexander

    Dr James Alexander TMS author and psychologist

    Forest- i agree, Moseley is thoughtful and appears to want to join the dots with psychology in the equation, but i suspect his own mechanistic bias makes this a bit difficult (i quote him in various places in my book as i think his observations about neurological sensitisation are an important part of the chornic pain jib-saw puzzle). I am happy to report that he got back to me today, with a thanks for me sending him my draft manuscript and a genuine apology for not getting back to me sooner- he says he is somewhat inundated with such books as well as unsolicited suggestions. The good news is that his pain has subsided over the last 3 months, and he says that he has learnt a lot as a result of the journey. I have asked him what helped to reduce the pain. When he replies, i will post his answer here (with his permission) as it may be of interest to others.
    Neil, Eric "Herbie" Watson and Forest like this.
  9. Dr James Alexander

    Dr James Alexander TMS author and psychologist

    This is what i wrote about Moseley in 'The Hidden Psychology of Pain' (p.370)

    Biological scientists, David Butler and Lorimer Moseley present a very sound explanation of the physiology and neurology of chronic pain. They go into the physical ‘nuts and bolts’ details to a minute degree, but also acknowledge the essential role which psychological factors like emotions and pain beliefs play in the maintenance of chronic pain. The Hidden Psychology of Pain does not attempt to replicate their physiological level of analysis— this can best be gained by reading their book. Both their, and the more psychological approaches, are echoing the same message, albeit from
    different directions and disciplines— both physiology and psychology are fundamentally important in the production and maintenance of chronic pain, as humans are clearly both physiological and psychological beings.
    There is no inherent contradiction between these two approaches— they are merely two sides of the one coin—a reflection of the mind/body
    split espoused by Decartes hundreds of years ago. It is possible, with the greater awareness of mind/body holism, for these approaches to converge. Explain Pain and The Hidden Psychology of Pain represent physiologist’s and psychologist’s respective attempts to overcome the artificial distinctions between mind and body. Each discipline will approach it in a manner which may be different, but these differences can ultimately be complementary and inform each other.
  10. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yes, Dr. Alexander, it sounds as though we are very much on the edge of that very convergence taking place.
    Enrique, eric watson and Forest like this.
  11. Forest

    Forest Beloved Grand Eagle

    That is all fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing it. I'd be very curious to hear what his response is.

    I think it's an important point that you mentioned in the excerpt from your book about biology vs. psychology. It feels like psychology is much more useful to people who are trying to heal because it is information that we can actually use.

    I'm in the process of reading appendix 2 in your book and am finding it very interesting. It's already been helpful to learn a little bit about the mechanisms of pain. For a while I've been curious about the different types of pain fibers. Plus, I had no idea that our brains use 400 calories per day!
  12. Gigi

    Gigi Well known member

    I agree that it's great to be free. Last week I was visiting my brother Kevin and when we took an evening walk, I was fighting the impulse to fall to to my knees and kiss the ground--it's that marvelous to be able to walk again! I last visited Kevin a year ago, and could only take a few steps.
    Gratitude is an important step in the journey for me.
    Enrique and Forest like this.
  13. CarboNeVo

    CarboNeVo Well known member

    I am now realizing this!! replying to this comment after 4 year to point out HOW FREAKING TRUE IT IS.
    YOU WANNA BEAT TMS? Only two things you have to do:
    1- Read outcome independence and practice it, or read balto's story. Basically stop the FEAR !!!
    2- You absolutely MUST address the underlying emotions, they are the culprit! address them so that your pain does not manifest elsewere. Perfect example is ezer's story on this site.

    I overcame CPPS/ prostatitis/ pudedndal neuralgia just to get the pain manifested in other places of my body as buttocks and legs.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
    Celayne and BruceMC like this.
  14. browndogisinthehouse

    browndogisinthehouse Peer Supporter

    Hello I am also dealing with similar issues. How do you handle the fear and the thoughts that the pain is going to be with you forever when the symptom changes from one place to another.

    I know that we have to accept the reality and practice outcome Independence but at the same time I don't know what to do because the continuation of pain has real impact on my finances and day to day survival
    Thank you for any Insight
  15. CarboNeVo

    CarboNeVo Well known member

    Imo changing the locations of pain is a perfect example that the brain has not given up his strategy yet, it is still trying to use PAIN as distraction/signal (doesnt matter, dont obsess with the science, that wont make you free of pain) . I am dealing with the same situation, my pain disappears in pelvis, goes to legs, buttocks or sometimes feet (i even had RSI for two days lol) . Crazy I know, why it takes for some to beat this for good just by reading the book and others struggle with TMS for years is a complete mistery, but I partly suspect that those people with book cures did not get lured into the world of TMS or as steveo calls them TMSers. They read the book, believed whats going on a gut level and moved on, did not join any site, did not stay distracted. Whenever felt pain they immediately applied Sarno's KEY instruction: "Whenever you find your self distracted by pain, think psychological" . Joining forums and spending countless hours on them is another strategy of the brain to use as distraction/signal,blahblah doesnt matter, you get me, right.
    The best explanation to "think psychological" which is REALLY CONFUSING btw was provided by @ezer , read his success story.
  16. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    A lot of people have noted that participating on sites can be a distraction from doing the real work of disengaging from the underlying emotional strategies driving the TMS pain symptoms. Becoming a "TMS expert" is not necessarily going to eliminate your symptoms unless you learn to think psychological as Dr Sarno put it.
    CarboNeVo likes this.

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