Pain caused during sleep?

shadowson

shadowson

Peer Supporter
My pain and symptoms are worst in the morning, as soon as I wake up.

If I sleep longer than 6 hours I really pay the price.

Back pain, neck pain and intense fatigue.

Some days are better than others.

I’ve noticed that if I wake up after only a few hours of sleep then I’m fine. It’s a full nights sleep that’s worse.

So I’ve started to think that it’s during REM that my pain and symptoms are caused.

Which makes sense in a way.

But that sounds like a very difficult job of reprogramming.

I’ve read about circadian rhythms and am going to try going to bed earlier.

Any thoughts on REM and dreams causing pain?
 
You can influence the quality of your sleep by establishing a brief mindfulness practice before you sleep. I've done this, and still do when I'm restless or out of sorts.

First, write down your thoughts about how your day went, listing anything that's bothering you. Find at least one thing you appreciate about yourself from the day, or one thing, no matter how small, that you are grateful for. Or both! You do not have to keep this writing, in fact it is recommended that this kind of writing be disposed of immediately.

After you do this, close your eyes and take several deep calming breaths. Then visualize having a full night of restful sleep. Tell yourself, literally speaking to yourself as if you're giving someone else advice, that you are perfectly capable of getting a good night's rest. You will wake up after each sleep cycle, which is normal, and then you will go back to sleep for the next cycle. Remind yourself that this is normal and there's no need for pain to be involved in any way at all, because you are perfectly safe and your fearful primitive brain can relax and let you enjoy your sleep.

Give it a try!
 
Are you remembering your dreams? Are they stressful? If so, it's likely that it is a reflection of your overall stress level. I think the TMS mechanism where the unconscious is protecting you from something by creating pain, is just as likely to occur during sleep. So do the TMS work to uncover that, and your sleep will likely improve over time.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
You can influence the quality of your sleep by establishing a brief mindfulness practice before you sleep. I've done this, and still do when I'm restless or out of sorts.

First, write down your thoughts about how your day went, listing anything that's bothering you. Find at least one thing you appreciate about yourself from the day, or one thing, no matter how small, that you are grateful for. Or both! You do not have to keep this writing, in fact it is recommended that this kind of writing be disposed of immediately.

After you do this, close your eyes and take several deep calming breaths. Then visualize having a full night of restful sleep. Tell yourself, literally speaking to yourself as if you're giving someone else advice, that you are perfectly capable of getting a good night's rest. You will wake up after each sleep cycle, which is normal, and then you will go back to sleep for the next cycle. Remind yourself that this is normal and there's no need for pain to be involved in any way at all, because you are perfectly safe and your fearful primitive brain can relax and let you enjoy your sleep.

Give it a try!
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Thanks Jan.
I'll try journaling befored bed. I've done loads of journaling but got no improvement.
Possibly you misunderstood, I do sleep through and don't wake up often (unless daughter gets up) -

it's when I wake up that pain and symptoms are worst. This is on most days, especially weekends. Weekdays I sleep less so have less pain.

Ironically I feel better when I have less sleep because sleep and bed and what sets my symptoms off.
 
Ellen said:
Are you remembering your dreams? Are they stressful? If so, it's likely that it is a reflection of your overall stress level. I think the TMS mechanism where the unconscious is protecting you from something by creating pain, is just as likely to occur during sleep. So do the TMS work to uncover that, and your sleep will likely improve over time.
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Yes I rememebr them mostly. They're nothing bad or scary. There are quite a few that are memories of the issues I've had with regards to sexual abuse and subsequent issues throughout my teens. But i get the pain even if the dreams are about nothing "bad"

I sleep through the night and dont struggle with insomnia or anything. Actually the opposit, I'm completely fatigued and battered most days.

I've done looooads of TMS work and got no results but I know there's nothing structurally wrong.
 
shadowson said:
They're nothing bad or scary. There are quite a few that are memories of the issues I've had with regards to sexual abuse and subsequent issues throughout my teens.
Click to expand...

These two statements seem incongruous. Memories of issues with sexual abuse seems pretty bad to me. Could you be minimizing this?
 
shadowson said:
So I’ve started to think that it’s during REM that my pain and symptoms are caused.
Click to expand...
That is really interesting and this is a mystery area of our consciousness. The last 'out of nowhere' attack I had came right after I had woken up in the middle of the night because of a Nightmare. I NEVER have nightmares and it was really disturbing. I was 'resistant' to having it , woke up and was like "That sucked...I don't want to have this nightmare"

I went back to sleep and woke up a few hours later in excruciating spasms!!! Even as far as TMS goes, it was a 92 out of a hundred as far as pain went...If I wasn't certain it was TMS I would have been terrified. In fact knowing it was TMS was almost worse because I knew there was nothing I could do to get out of pain except move...which hurt.

That was sort of proof positive that their is something going on 'down there' and when we don't let it get worked out it can accidentally get knocked into out waking hours. It's always frustrating getting symptoms when we are supposed to be recharging and relaxing.

The Good news, is that we CAN work it out in the daylight/daytime hours..
 
...and per your other post, are you forcefully turning your thoughts to a source of persistent irritation? I have never meditated, done an app or been to a TMS therapist...I just took apart Sarno's stray comments and made them a therapy.(pg 77 of Healing Back Pain) It is especially a nuisance when trying to sleep but it has been well worth the occasional bad nights sleep to put down the book or whatever 'relaxing' thing I am doing and force my thoughts to the things in my life I am not happy about. THAT was what tells my unconscious I don't need it's help (symptoms)
 
Ellen said:
These two statements seem incongruous. Memories of issues with sexual abuse seems pretty bad to me. Could you be minimizing this?
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Yeah I guess so. I’ve journaled about it loads though, no results.

But I must admit, I am known for minimising my trauma
 
Baseball65 said:
...and per your other post, are you forcefully turning your thoughts to a source of persistent irritation? I have never meditated, done an app or been to a TMS therapist...I just took apart Sarno's stray comments and made them a therapy.(pg 77 of Healing Back Pain) It is especially a nuisance when trying to sleep but it has been well worth the occasional bad nights sleep to put down the book or whatever 'relaxing' thing I am doing and force my thoughts to the things in my life I am not happy about. THAT was what tells my unconscious I don't need it's help (symptoms)
Click to expand...

am I forcefully turning my thoughts to a persistent irritation? Yes I assume so. I don’t really have to force it though, I’m angry all the time.
It’s hard to believe the repressed rage concept because I dont feel like I repress it
 
shadowson said:
It’s hard to believe the repressed rage concept because I dont feel like I repress it
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Minimizing your childhood trauma is the repression. The anger you express is probably displaced. It's not where the true rage is. Do the ACEs quiz (I just posted it on other thread you commented on today).
You don't have to report your score if you don't want to, what's more important is that you must take the test with 100% total self honesty. Minimizing your trauma to yourself is blocking you from any possibility of recovery.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
Minimizing your childhood trauma is the repression. The anger you express is probably displaced. It's not where the true rage is. Do the ACEs quiz (I just posted it on other thread you commented on today).
You don't have to report your score if you don't want to, what's more important is that you must take the test with 100% total self honesty. Minimizing your trauma to yourself is blocking you from any possibility of recovery.
Click to expand...
Thanks Jan, will do. Appreciate your help…
 
JanAtheCPA said:
Minimizing your childhood trauma is the repression. The anger you express is probably displaced. It's not where the true rage is. Do the ACEs quiz (I just posted it on other thread you commented on today).
You don't have to report your score if you don't want to, what's more important is that you must take the test with 100% total self honesty. Minimizing your trauma to yourself is blocking you from any possibility of recovery.
Click to expand...
Hi Jan

I got a 3 on ACE test. I knew that already though because I’d done the test a year or two ago.

We welcomed a baby boy last week.

Since his arrival we haven’t slept much, he’s wanting to feed every two hours.

So generally I’ve hardly had much sleep.

Which means I’ve felt really good with minimum pain. Yes I’ve been tired, but pain levels very low.

Last night we had an early night and I was in bed for 12 hours. Waking every 3 hours to feed him.

So I’ve had more sleep.

And I feel like I’ve been hit by a train.

All the pain and all the fatigue is back. I’m more tired now than when I was getting a few hours sleep.

And my mood falls off a cliff. It just makes me want to cry and lock myself in a dark room.

I have no idea how to stop my subconscious mind triggering pain during my sleep (and I know it’s during the REM phase)
 
Congratulations on the birth of your baby boy!

It's interesting to me that you haven't mentioned you were expecting a child. Being a parent is probably one of the things that is most likely to generate TMS. TMS comes from internal conflict between the conscious and unconscious. On the conscious level, having a new baby is a source of joy and pride. But on the unconscious level our inner child (id) can be screaming "what about ME!", due to the incredible amount of work and stress involved in raising another human being. I think this is amplified if you have your own childhood trauma to deal with. Our culture doesn't allow people to freely express the difficulties of caring for a child, so we repress it, and it comes out as TMS. Nicole Sachs, who is a mother of five, does an excellent job of discussing this on her podcast on the episodes where she talks about her own TMS journey. She found relief by expressing all the stress and difficulties through her technique of Journalspeak. I highly recommend that you check this out.
 
I had the same response as @Ellen. Anyone who's being honest with themselves about their true emotions is going to face a new baby with "Holy crap what the f*** have I gotten myself into?!"

You don't need to say this out loud. But minimizing this completely normal response is nothing more than a euphemism for classic Sarno-style repression.

I mean, I also extend my congratulations to you, BUT... acknowledging this truth about reality is essential to your ability to be realistic and therefore effective as a parent.

As for your ACEs score, a 3 is very significant. You might want to take a good honest look at your unconscious fear that you might somehow inflict this history of dysfunction on your child. You might think that this is completely irrational, and I agree: the conscious mind understands that this is an irrational fear. However it's the unconscious mind we're dealing with here, and our unconscious minds are not rational, because they were designed to live in fear.

No wonder you have such exhausting dreams. Get this s*** out in the open and really examine it honestly, no matter how frightening it is. It's the only way out of this.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
I had the same response as @Ellen. Anyone who's being honest with themselves about their true emotions is going to face a new baby with "Holy crap what the f*** have I gotten myself into?!"

You don't need to say this out loud. But minimizing this completely normal response is nothing more than a euphemism for classic Sarno-style repression.

I mean, I also extend my congratulations to you, BUT... acknowledging this truth about reality is essential to your ability to be realistic and therefore effective as a parent.

As for your ACEs score, a 3 is very significant. You might want to take a good honest look at your unconscious fear that you might somehow inflict this history of dysfunction on your child. You might think that this is completely irrational, and I agree: the conscious mind understands that this is an irrational fear. However it's the unconscious mind we're dealing with here, and our unconscious minds are not rational, because they were designed to live in fear.

No wonder you have such exhausting dreams. Get this s*** out in the open and really examine it honestly, no matter how frightening it is. It's the only way out of this.
Click to expand...
Ellen said:
Congratulations on the birth of your baby boy!

It's interesting to me that you haven't mentioned you were expecting a child. Being a parent is probably one of the things that is most likely to generate TMS. TMS comes from internal conflict between the conscious and unconscious. On the conscious level, having a new baby is a source of joy and pride. But on the unconscious level our inner child (id) can be screaming "what about ME!", due to the incredible amount of work and stress involved in raising another human being. I think this is amplified if you have your own childhood trauma to deal with. Our culture doesn't allow people to freely express the difficulties of caring for a child, so we repress it, and it comes out as TMS. Nicole Sachs, who is a mother of five, does an excellent job of discussing this on her podcast on the episodes where she talks about her own TMS journey. She found relief by expressing all the stress and difficulties through her technique of Journalspeak. I highly recommend that you check this out.
Click to expand...
Hi Ellen

thanks for replying.
I hear what you’re saying but it’s not the newborn baby triggering my pain. I’ve had this pain for many years and it hasn’t changed or got worse since the little fella arrived.
If anything it’s been better because I’m getting less sleep so my pain isn’t being triggered.
I’ve done Nicole Sachs journaling and it made no improvement to my pain. I’m open to trying it again though because I’ve had some sort of spiritual awakening since then. Also I’ve been journaling a bit recently with Curable.
 
JanAtheCPA said:
I had the same response as @Ellen. Anyone who's being honest with themselves about their true emotions is going to face a new baby with "Holy crap what the f*** have I gotten myself into?!"

You don't need to say this out loud. But minimizing this completely normal response is nothing more than a euphemism for classic Sarno-style repression.

I mean, I also extend my congratulations to you, BUT... acknowledging this truth about reality is essential to your ability to be realistic and therefore effective as a parent.

As for your ACEs score, a 3 is very significant. You might want to take a good honest look at your unconscious fear that you might somehow inflict this history of dysfunction on your child. You might think that this is completely irrational, and I agree: the conscious mind understands that this is an irrational fear. However it's the unconscious mind we're dealing with here, and our unconscious minds are not rational, because they were designed to live in fear.

No wonder you have such exhausting dreams. Get this s*** out in the open and really examine it honestly, no matter how frightening it is. It's the only way out of this.
Click to expand...
Hi Jan

I’ve had this pain for years. It’s not started because of my new baby. It’s actually improved because I’m getting less sleep. The pain is caused during my REM cycle, whether there’s a new baby or not.

You’re right, I do actually have some fears about him experiencing what I have. I already have a daughter and had similar thoughts with her.
Also yes I need to get the trauma out in the open, but I’ve had several counsellors and also worked with 4 TMS therapists, all with zero results. That was before I realised the pain is triggered during the dream cycle though

last night I woke up at 4am and felt great. Then I woke up at 6:30 and felt good.

Then I nodded back off until 8:30, had loads of dreams and bang, here comes the pain.
 
Be sure to look at all the relationships in your life you think/thought were going well.
A therapist once pointed out that my love and concern for my Dad, who I thought was a great Dad, might not be what it seemed. She was absolutely right, and not just about him. And it actually wasn’t about those people, it was about how it made me feel and my anger and guilt around those feelings.
I also see that at this point, you expect night pain. It’s so hard to break, but now you are expecting it in REM sleep. Creativity on sending messages to your brain that you are absolutely safe in sleep is needed. Perhaps by your reaction to the symptoms in the morning?
 
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