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Alan has completed the new Pain Recovery Program. To read or share it, use this updated link: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/painrecovery/
overlapping ?
- Thread starter miquelb3
- Start date
MindBodyPT
Beloved Grand Eagle
Hi miquelb3,
This is very common.
I have a diagnosis of low back disc herniation, and my primary issue has been low back pain, which has now mostly cleared up after a few weeks of TMS education and the SEP. TMS pain can also occur after an actual major injury, like a fracture, has fully healed. I've seen this very frequently in my practice as a PT, which I recognize now that I know about TMS. For example, i've had patients who had broken legs that healed over a year ago yet are still having pain at the injury site. Since the bone is now healed and there is no other injury, the pain must be from TMS.
Things like radial tunnel and carpal tunnel syndrome are often really just TMS pain if there is no acute injury/laceration/tear to the area. Many people on this forum, including myself, have diagnosed "syndromes" such as radial tunnel or disc herniation. If there is no true tissue injury or other pathology the TMS pain is likely to "piggyback" on an area of the body that has had a minor injury or diagnosis, long after the minor injury has healed. Sarno talks a lot about this, the brain is smart in this way that it seems more plausible to your conscious mind to be having pain in the area of another old/healed minor injury.
This is very common.
I have a diagnosis of low back disc herniation, and my primary issue has been low back pain, which has now mostly cleared up after a few weeks of TMS education and the SEP. TMS pain can also occur after an actual major injury, like a fracture, has fully healed. I've seen this very frequently in my practice as a PT, which I recognize now that I know about TMS. For example, i've had patients who had broken legs that healed over a year ago yet are still having pain at the injury site. Since the bone is now healed and there is no other injury, the pain must be from TMS.
Things like radial tunnel and carpal tunnel syndrome are often really just TMS pain if there is no acute injury/laceration/tear to the area. Many people on this forum, including myself, have diagnosed "syndromes" such as radial tunnel or disc herniation. If there is no true tissue injury or other pathology the TMS pain is likely to "piggyback" on an area of the body that has had a minor injury or diagnosis, long after the minor injury has healed. Sarno talks a lot about this, the brain is smart in this way that it seems more plausible to your conscious mind to be having pain in the area of another old/healed minor injury.
many thanks MindBody!
I think I understand the TMS as a distractor of deep, menacing, difficult emotions. But for "overlapping" I mean another thing.
After months of pain in my right forearm my doctor has found a simple medical explanation: the arcade of Frohse is compressing the radial nerve.
My job demands lots of overworking with de right arm. That overload produces pain. That pain provoques an emotional cascade of fear, anger, rage,....(about my job, about my future) and the pain (clearly TMS) spreads to the left arm, upper back,... When I stop my overactivity with the right arm the pain subsides (althought don't stop absolutely) ..... and the (TMS) pain in the rest of my body almost disapears.
That's for me "overlapping": the pain produced by a commonplace anatomical defect triggers the TMS/emotional pain.
Opinions welcomed. Thanks a lot.
MindBodyPT
Beloved Grand Eagle
I think the idea is that the "anatomical defect" isn't really the true producer of pain at all, it is TMS. Overwork at your job produces pain due to TMS reasons, not anatomical ones. Many conventional healthcare practitioners will not recognize this and will attribute the pain to a structural cause. A TMS doc or practicioner would probably have another explanation.
If your radial nerve was truly compressed you would experience numbness and loss of function in your hand, not just pain.
Pain at work is likely occurring as a result of conditioning, as Sarno talks about. Your arm hurts because you are conditioned to feel pain there during certain movements and situations. When you stop working it subsides.
It's hard to accept this is really why TMS pain happens, rather than "overuse", but to truly accept a TMS diagnosis this is the kind of thinking you have to work on.
Hoping you feel better soon!
If your radial nerve was truly compressed you would experience numbness and loss of function in your hand, not just pain.
Pain at work is likely occurring as a result of conditioning, as Sarno talks about. Your arm hurts because you are conditioned to feel pain there during certain movements and situations. When you stop working it subsides.
It's hard to accept this is really why TMS pain happens, rather than "overuse", but to truly accept a TMS diagnosis this is the kind of thinking you have to work on.
Hoping you feel better soon!
Gigalos
Beloved Grand Eagle
I agree that for an impingement you should suffer from other neurological symptoms. And even then it isn't said that it is the reason, because mindbody symptoms can be very diverse.
You see a lot of people suffering from TMS (RSI in my opinion) who have pain in their neck, shoulders, arms and hands, the whole nerve path that originates from the neck seems sensitized and the muscles in play feel sore and stiff. Often tingling or 'electricity' is felt in certain area's (fingers, wrist,......), or numbness and difficulty bending/stretching certain fingers is experienced. It seems to come up during certain work where those muscles have to act, like using the mouse behind a computer or doing other physical activities.
The fact that you have to do lots of overwork could point to TMS imho. Personally I hate bosses who let their staff do overwork on a regular base, maybe you do too?? Or maybe you hate yourself for not saying "NO, not tonight!" to your boss. Maybe I am projecting my own experiences on you, sorry, but maybe it hits home
I discovered that I did my work in a strained way. I used to do work at night regularly, felt people breathing down my neck because they of course always needed the documents yesterday, felt irritated when more crap was dumped onto my desk without proper consultation, felt irritated about dumb, time-consuming projects or work that was the result of lazy co-workers not doing theirs properly. Not speaking out to my boss and setting clear restrictions on what I could/would do as an employee, was one of the major contributors to my TMS.
One major give-away that it is really TMS: it is experienced in both arms, either simultaneously or at different moments in time. If so, impingement is very unlikely. I have talked to more than one person who had an operation to get rid off the symptoms, only to get the same symptoms in their other arm after a couple of months. Chances of that happening because of a real, structural problem are slim to none.
I think I understand what you are proposing. Can a real, structurally induced pain give rise to TMS, because it enrages and scares you? Yes, I think it can, but I highly doubt it is what you are suffering from. With that I mean that I think your symptoms are not the result of something structurally wrong in your arm. That said, I am not a doctor so you have to decide yourself which road to travel.
good luck to you, hang in there
You see a lot of people suffering from TMS (RSI in my opinion) who have pain in their neck, shoulders, arms and hands, the whole nerve path that originates from the neck seems sensitized and the muscles in play feel sore and stiff. Often tingling or 'electricity' is felt in certain area's (fingers, wrist,......), or numbness and difficulty bending/stretching certain fingers is experienced. It seems to come up during certain work where those muscles have to act, like using the mouse behind a computer or doing other physical activities.
The fact that you have to do lots of overwork could point to TMS imho. Personally I hate bosses who let their staff do overwork on a regular base, maybe you do too?? Or maybe you hate yourself for not saying "NO, not tonight!" to your boss. Maybe I am projecting my own experiences on you, sorry, but maybe it hits home
I discovered that I did my work in a strained way. I used to do work at night regularly, felt people breathing down my neck because they of course always needed the documents yesterday, felt irritated when more crap was dumped onto my desk without proper consultation, felt irritated about dumb, time-consuming projects or work that was the result of lazy co-workers not doing theirs properly. Not speaking out to my boss and setting clear restrictions on what I could/would do as an employee, was one of the major contributors to my TMS.One major give-away that it is really TMS: it is experienced in both arms, either simultaneously or at different moments in time. If so, impingement is very unlikely. I have talked to more than one person who had an operation to get rid off the symptoms, only to get the same symptoms in their other arm after a couple of months. Chances of that happening because of a real, structural problem are slim to none.
I think I understand what you are proposing. Can a real, structurally induced pain give rise to TMS, because it enrages and scares you? Yes, I think it can, but I highly doubt it is what you are suffering from. With that I mean that I think your symptoms are not the result of something structurally wrong in your arm. That said, I am not a doctor so you have to decide yourself which road to travel.
good luck to you, hang in there
Thanks Gigalos !
Actually I'm not an office worker. I play the cello, I'm a cellist. Lots of use and abuse of the right arm in order to get an huge sound could, acording to my doctor, be the real cause of pain in a concrete and well defined spot in the forearm. Something similar to tennist elbow.... but subtly different. The radial nerve "could be" entrapped in the arcade of Frohse. Not uncommon in musicians.
So, working with my instrument becomes a real torture .... and that triggers an spiral of troubling emotions (rage, anger, fear, sadness, frustration,...) related to my expectations as good professional. The TMS pain spreads in the left arm, upper back, hands,... often coupled with tingling and numbness. I suppose (hope) the fixation of the focal (not disfuse nor vagrant) pain in my right arm (very connected to my activity as musician) could be the begining of the subsiding of my worries and fears about my job/passion and also the end of my overlapping TMS pain.
Just guessing, just dreaming!
thanks everybody for your help !!!
Actually I'm not an office worker. I play the cello, I'm a cellist. Lots of use and abuse of the right arm in order to get an huge sound could, acording to my doctor, be the real cause of pain in a concrete and well defined spot in the forearm. Something similar to tennist elbow.... but subtly different. The radial nerve "could be" entrapped in the arcade of Frohse. Not uncommon in musicians.
So, working with my instrument becomes a real torture .... and that triggers an spiral of troubling emotions (rage, anger, fear, sadness, frustration,...) related to my expectations as good professional. The TMS pain spreads in the left arm, upper back, hands,... often coupled with tingling and numbness. I suppose (hope) the fixation of the focal (not disfuse nor vagrant) pain in my right arm (very connected to my activity as musician) could be the begining of the subsiding of my worries and fears about my job/passion and also the end of my overlapping TMS pain.
Just guessing, just dreaming!
thanks everybody for your help !!!