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osteoporosis at 45

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by mncjl123, Jun 14, 2016.

  1. mncjl123

    mncjl123 Peer Supporter

    is osteoporosis and its pain caused by tms? can it be reversed with tms therapy? Or do I need to follow doctors instructions for bone strengthening ie...drugs, calcium, vitamin d etc... My bones are very bad!
  2. tgirl

    tgirl Well known member

    I'm not a doctor but osteoporosis certainly seems physical to me. Bone loss is a real thing, not stemming from the mind (in my opinion). I would follow the doctors instructions. I have slight bone loss and have upped my calcium and vitamin D. I don't feel this symptom of mine is mind/body related, but rather physical.
  3. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    Angel I urge you to resist such polarised thinking. It is not a simple case of doctor vs. tms

    Our bodies have needs. This is a flat out fact. Tragically doctors are not educated in nutrition and indeed only this week a conference at the Royal Society of Medicine said that doctors are inept and that the lack of nutritional education amounted to clinical negligence. If only this were the half of it.

    For thousands upon thousands of years humanity has got along quite nicely eating natural food. This is absolutely all you need to know. If it comes in any kind of packet the answer is NO.

    The inconvenient truth is that nature suits us best. You don't need drugs, or calcium tablets or synthetic vitamin D. You need to respect the fact that you are human, of the flesh and that the earth does provide.

    Diet has become massively politicised.
    Medicine is massively politicised.

    Eat veggies. Eat meat. Eat fish. Eat veggies. Eat fruit. Eat butter. Cook with lard, dripping or goose fat. Eat veggies. Eat cheese. Drink milk. Eat eggs.

    Make bone broth. Use it as a base for gravy, stews, casseroles.

    These are basics of good old-fashioned cooking and nothing beats home cooking.

    Spend time in the sun everyday (all the vitamin D you need).

    Lay off the booze and the junk.


    Look after yourself.
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
    mike2014 likes this.
  4. mncjl123

    mncjl123 Peer Supporter

    Thanks. I have eaten Paleo for 6 years. Fish, meat, dairy, butter, good fat, veggies, cheese etc... and still have osteoporosis! And, I live in Florida - the sunshine state. Go figure?
  5. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/osteoporosis-drugs-good-medicine-or-big-pharma-scam/ (Osteoporosis Drugs: Good Medicine or Big Pharma Scam? « Science-Based Medicine)

    Osteoporosis Drugs: Good Medicine or Big Pharma Scam?
    Posted by Harriet Hall on January 5, 2010 81 Comments
    A recent story on NPR accused the drug manufacturer Merck of inventing a disease, osteopenia, in order to sell its drug Fosamax. It showed how the definition of what constitutes a disease evolves, and the role that drug companies can play in that evolution.

    Osteoporosis is a reduction in bone mineral density that leads to fractures. The most serious are hip fractures, which require surgery, have complications like blood clots, and carry a high mortality. Many of those who survive never walk again. Vertebral fractures are common in the osteoporotic elderly and are responsible for dowager’s hump and loss of height. There is also an increased risk of wrist and rib fractures.

    Bone density tends to decrease with age. Postmenopausal women are particularly susceptible to osteoporosis when their production of estrogen declines. The risk is increased in people taking corticosteroids and in people with certain diseases like rheumatoid arthritis. Other risk factors are European or Asian ancestry, smoking, excess alcohol, a family history of fractures, vitamin D deficiency, too much or too little exercise, malnutrition, and low body weight.

    When a measurement like bone density varies widely in a population and decreases with age, how can we decide where to draw the line and call it abnormal? When does it become a disease requiring treatment?

    For a long time, the diagnosis of osteoporosis depended on the occurrence of a fracture. In 1992 a group of experts convened by the World Health Organization agreed to define osteoporosis as a bone density 2.5 standard deviations below that of an average 30 year old white woman. They defined osteopenia as a bone density one standard deviation below that of an average 30-year-old white woman. The decision to use one standard deviation and 2.5 standard deviations was arbitrary, and it was meant as a tool to measure the emergence of a problem in a population rather than to have precise diagnostic or therapeutic significance for an individual. Nevertheless, these criteria were widely interpreted to mean that half the population has a disease they need to worry about.

    Bisphosphonate drugs like Merck’s Fosamax and Sally Field’s beloved Boniva were intended to reduce the risk of fractures in patients with osteoporosis. They are effective in reducing spine fractures and in increasing bone density measurements, but some studies have shown no reduction in non-spine fractures, which are more common, and in the case of hip fractures, more significant. A British Medical Journal article pointed out,

    Two thirds of vertebral fractures are subclinical or asymptomatic and may not affect quality of life. As a consequence showing that drugs reduce vertebral fractures may not be as important to patients as it seems.

    According to a table published by the USPSTF (US Preventive Services Task Force), among women aged 50-54, 60 women need to be treated to prevent one vertebral fracture and 227 to prevent one hip fracture. Among women aged 65-69, 30 must be treated to prevent one vertebral fracture and 88 must be treated to prevent one hip fracture. Sally is 63: the numbers for her age group are 30 and 121. One wonders if she is aware of these numbers.

    These drugs are not benign. To prevent ulceration of the esophagus, for 30 minutes after taking Fosamax patients must avoid eating or drinking anything but plain water; they must not lie down or recline, or take any other medications during that time. Bisphosphonates have been linked to osteonecrosis of the jaw. There are as yet no long-term studies. Case reports suggest the possibility that they might paradoxically increase fractures in the long run. By one estimate, the NNH (Number Needed to Harm) is 16 as measured by discontinuing treatment due to adverse effects.

    When Merck started marketing Fosamax, not many women were being screened for osteoporosis because the standard DEXA (dual energy x-ray absorptiometry) test required expensive equipment and was not readily available. They thought if they could increase the rate of diagnosis they could sell more pills. Merck promoted the development of small, less expensive scanners that could be used on a heel or wrist in a doctor’s office. Merck even set up a nonprofit organization called the Bone Measurement Institute, which worked to spread the use of these machines and bring down the price of bone exams. Unfortunately, the results of those scans did not correlate well to the results of the gold standard DEXA scan.

    A doctor quoted by NPR said,

    The problem with the smaller peripheral machines is that taking a measurement of someone’s heel or forearm isn’t going to tell you what you need to know about the bones in the parts of the body that, if fractured, increase a woman’s risk of death — the hip and spine.

    Who should be screened? The USPSTF found that, for women 55 to 59 years of age, the number needed to screen (NNS) over five years was more than 4,000 to prevent one hip fracture and 1,300 to prevent one vertebral fracture. The NNS to prevent one hip fracture over five years declines with age, to 1,856 for women 60 to 64 years of age, 731 for women 65 to 69 years of age, and 143 for women 75 to 79 years of age.

    The USPSTF currently recommends that women aged 65 and older be screened routinely for osteoporosis. It recommends that routine screening begin at age 60 for women at increased risk for osteoporotic fractures (there is a handy online FRAX tool for estimating an individual’s risk of osteoporotic fractures). It found insufficient evidence to make any recommendations for younger women or for men. Meanwhile, direct-to-public ultrasound screening companies have jumped on the bandwagon and are offering poor quality osteoporosis screening to men and women of all ages, with innumerable false positives requiring further testing and unnecessary worry.

    The results of the scans promoted by Merck were reported either as normal bone density, osteopenia, or osteoporosis. Osteopenia carries only a small increased risk of fractures, but the assumption was that left untreated it would progress to osteoporosis. It is really more of a risk factor for osteoporosis than a disease in its own right. Some women diagnosed with osteopenia may not even have bone loss; they may just be at the low end of normal on a wide spectrum. But osteopenia sounds abnormal, and it sounds like a diagnosis, and it sounds to a lot of people like it needs treating. A new disease was born with a ready-made treatment.

    There are other pharmaceutical options for osteoporosis. Estrogens reduce osteoporosis risk but carry too many other risks to be used for that indication alone. Raloxifene is a selective estrogen receptor modifier that has estrogenic effects on bone but anti-estrogenic effects on the uterus and breast. It reduces the risk of vertebral fractures but not other fractures. It increases the risk of thromboembolism and fatal stroke although it does not reduce the overall death rate. Another option is calcitonin, but it is less effective.

    Pharmaceutical treatments are not the only option. Weight-bearing exercise, prevention of falls, quitting cigarettes, curtailing alcohol, and ensuring adequate intake of calcium and vitamin D are all beneficial. A recent study showed that higher doses of vitamin D supplements (over 400 IU a day) reduced fractures by 20%.

    Merck’s actions may have been misguided, but I don’t see this as a scam. Merck employees were trying to make money for the company, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t also genuinely trying to do the right thing to help patients. They had a product that they thought would prevent fractures and save lives, and they wanted to get it to everyone who could benefit. In their enthusiasm, they overshot and went beyond the science.

    The NPR article admitted that there are two sides to this story.

    …drug companies produce incredible drugs that can greatly relieve suffering. But one way they profit from those drugs is to extend their use to as many people as possible, which frequently means that medications are used in populations with milder and milder versions of a disease, so that the risks of medicating can come to outweigh the benefits.

    Big Pharma advertises but it is doctors who write the prescriptions: when drugs are over-prescribed, only the prescribers are to blame. What should doctors do? In the first place, they should be recommending preventive lifestyle changes to all their patients. They should stick to the best science-based practices and evaluate the evidence for themselves rather than being influenced by Sally Field or by Big Pharma propaganda. They should prescribe drug treatments only when fracture risk is significant, when a fracture has already occurred, or when they think bone density is significantly low (still a judgment call). They should explain the gray areas to their patients and involve them in the decision to treat. They should think in terms of number needed to treat and number needed to harm. And they should be aware of the games Big Pharma plays.

    Tags: boniva, fosamax, fractures, osteopenia, osteoporosis

    Posted in: Pharmaceuticals

    mike2014 likes this.
  6. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    What evidence do you have for that?
  7. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    I concede. That is vexing. I'd still be cautious of taking meds though. As Tom's post describes they are never benign.

    I'm uncomfortable stating it is tms but on the other hand I'm loathe to suggest you dig around alternative medicine.

    Any other thoughts or considerations to add to the pot?
  8. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    Tom, I've just been reading about overdiagnosis and how doctors tests keep on finding stuff and pathologising it. Old news I know but relevant as always.
  9. mncjl123

    mncjl123 Peer Supporter

    thanks! everyone.

    I have not taken any drugs yet... I just eat healthy.

    And, pain from osteoporosis? Is that TMS?
  10. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    Maybe one of the tms therapists could weigh in on this..? I'd be interested in their take.
  11. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

  12. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    I was diagnosed with osteoporosis and have taken Fosamax for some time. My bone density has improved since taking the medication, so that now I'm in the osteopenia range. My mother had osteoporosis that went undiagnosed for some time, and I saw her suffer with many broken bones, and she had a very stooped posture in her last years.. I did not want to suffer a similar fate, so I take the medication. I don't have any side effects from it that I'm aware of. I don't think this is TMS, but I'm not an expert on osteoporosis. It seems to be one of those conditions that occurs due to the longer life span we have than our ancestors. My doctor told me it doesn't usually cause pain, but can if you have micro-fractures from it.

    I eat a very healthy diet and exercise 6 days a week--don't smoke or drink. But I have all the risk factors for osteoporosis--small frame, blonde/blue eyes, family history.

    But whether or not to take medication for any diagnosed condition is a very personal decision. We just do the best the can with the information we have. Hopefully, you have a doctor that you trust and can discuss the pros and cons with.
    plum and tgirl like this.
  13. Lady Phoenix

    Lady Phoenix Peer Supporter

    I have heard and read that animal protein causes calcium to leach from our bones. I was always concerned about this because many people I knew were relying on dairy products to correct the problem. If I were you, I would give TMS a try (temporarily) just to see if you notice any improvements in any of your symptoms. Some people have success by pretending they are sure of the TMS diagnosis. Maybe it's a combination. I wish you the best!
    MWsunin12 likes this.
  14. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    I read about this too. As with so many things the research data is conflicting and it does get wearisome uncovering the political interests behind each project.

    I reached a point a few years ago where I
    decided I was done with dietary cures. I love food and cooking, and often read books and blogs by chefs. Most of them don't give two figs for food fads and I find that both refreshing and sensible.

    I'm a good old-fashioned girl who enjoys home cooking and looking after people. Meat and two veg meals have been a bedrock for generations. How much of that rests upon loving someone enough to care for them in this basic fashion.
  15. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yikes! I eat a lot of animal protein but not that much dairy. I feel better on the diet I'm on (low carb/high fat) so I'll stick with it. There is so much conflicting information on health out there, that I guess in the end I just try to listen to my body.

    The only risk in using the TMS approach to treat osteoporosis is that the symptoms are silent unless you have pain that is directly related to micro-fractures. So it would be hard to know if you were improving or not until you get a bone density scan. My insurance will only pay for this every 2 years, so I would go a long time before knowing if the TMS approach was working or not.

    But if you have pain that is related to osteoporosis or not, than using the TMS approach for this symptom seems like a good idea. But the decision to forego all other medical treatments/advice for treating osteoporosis has some potential risks that you will need to weigh.

    My best wishes.......
    Lady Phoenix likes this.
  16. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    Ellen, there are currently 5916 search results on pubmed for osteo and animal protein. I think you'd go mad teasing out some sense.

    I find your approach to this very sensible.
    Ellen likes this.
  17. mncjl123

    mncjl123 Peer Supporter

    Humans are carnivorous! I did the vegetarian scene for 20 years before becoming Paleo. I have never looked worse or been sicker consuming only plants, vegies, fruits and seeds. I did the kale, strawberry and you know what shakes for years. With all organic vegetarian produce. Grains are evil too!
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  18. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    I hear you. I've never been vegetarian but in my twenties I suffered with candida and for seven long and miserable years I followed the no dairy, no sugar of any kind...

    I was pale but not interesting (by dint of the unending misery), skinny as a bean and cold all the time. I much prefer the hot-bloodied plump plum of today.

    Idle thought but I'm guessing the studies on dairy are using conventional produce. I gave most of that up a while ago because the flavour and consistency is too watery. I have developed a taste for the tangy. I love raw cheese and kefir.

    Beef for dinner here. All welcome. Bring a bottle :)
  19. mncjl123

    mncjl123 Peer Supporter

    All for the raw cheese too! Grass fed buffalo burgers with bacon and cheese along with a vegie tonight.
    Tennis Tom likes this.

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