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No pain but all the personality traits

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by Stella, Jan 4, 2014.

  1. Stella

    Stella Well known member

    I talk with people who have disease, syndroms, cancer but not chronic pain. As I have read somewhere desperation breeds an open mind. It seems like the desperation is usually around chronic pain and finding no relief. I believe the 42 day program would be very insightful for anyone but the response I get is... but I don't have chronic pain (so this does not apply to me).

    Any suggestions on how to approach this with people?
  2. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi, Stella. You've led the horses to water but they don't want to drink, so you've done all you can
    to get them to accept TMS.
    Dr. Sarno says cancer is another symptom from TMS, so those with cancer have to decide whether
    to just rely on medical treatment or add TMS healing to it. It won't hurt them to believe their cancer
    is caused by repressed emotions, but they may just not believe that.

    Don't stress yourself trying to convince them about TMS. I'm sure you're not, but I'd just plant the seed
    and if nothing grows, let it go.
  3. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    Stella, I wrote on page 78 in GPD that "desperation breeds open minds." Is that where you got that from? I've read on several sites people quoting word-for-word lines from my book, but they usually say, "I don't know where I got this from?" I suppose that's not good for me.

    Walt is right again, you can lead a person to the answers, but you can't make him think. This is precisely where all this TMS stuff has taken me. I always wondered where all my research would lead me, and it's not about explaining TMS as I thought it would be. I now spend all my time explaining why people don't want to heal. It's simple. Almost everything we get is from an emotional process, but only a small few can see that the emperor has no clothes.

    Pain is only one symptom of TMS. The best thing you can do to help people is to give them examples of healing. They can't deny them, and in my experience they will just ignore it. Thus, people don't want to heal, they only want to treat their bodies. Healing isn't in their lexicon.

    nowtimecoach and Msunn like this.
  4. Stella

    Stella Well known member

    Thanks Steve.... I will give you credit in the future because I use this quote quit often. I am glad I to know.

    I use "my story" in telling people about TMS which is persuasive but you are right it seems like most want the easy way out. As Walt says we are planting seeds. It is hard to see people suffer so much when the solution is so easily available.
  5. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi, Steve. I've known people, including friends, who just aren't happy unless they're miserable.
    Maybe they like to spread misery around, not for them to feel better, but to make others feel worse

    I try to stay clear of those kind of people. Most of my friends are cheerful and spread cheer.

    Yesterday on the Parts call-in, a fellow named Matthew said he was in back pain and believed it
    came from arguing with his girlfriend. He said that afterward he apologized to her and the pain
    went away. His experience can be applied to just about every situation.

    I think it's a good example for healing.

    Steve, on the subject of people quoting from your book but not attributing it to you, that's not right.
    But at least you know your advice and wisdom is helping people.

    A friend says the hosts on Turner Classic Movies are always lifting information from his series
    of books on the movies, The Motion Picture Guide, but never saying where they got it.
    They make themselves sound like the biggest experts on movies, but are really lifting from his books.
    He says he doesn't like it, but hasn't called them on it. He says he feels good knowing his knowledge
    of the movies is worth stealing. Someone once said academics don't consider using other people's knowledge
    without permission to quote them is not plagiarism. They call it research. haha
  6. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    I realize that most people can't remember where they got certain pieces of information. Plus, the tmsers are an information junkie group, and after while it all begins to blend together into a cluster-fun of material. In Stella's defense, she said she didn't remember where she saw it, and she didn't take credit.

    But--it's virtually impossible to say something that hasn't been said before. As we learned in school, it isn't the thought that is plagiarized, as much as, the word for word lifting. And even then, it's virtually impossible to be an original. The good doctor I believe did it though. He didn't come up with the concept of psychosomatic healing, but he had some original discoveries. Thus, he's the one that changed the world, not us.

    But Stella raised a great point. How do you help people who you know that you can help, but won't listen. That was the thing I talked to Dr. Sarno about on the phone for the longest time. He was never able to convert people, or force them to want to heal. So he told me to stop wasting time on them, there were enough people that needed my help. He told me to put all my energy and focus and time into helping the ones who were willing to listen. He was right...again.

    So what can we do? We can stand our ground for truth. A single candle will light the darkest of nights. If we stand together we can make the entire forest glow (Forest, copyright, Forest@TMSwiki, 2002, used with permission).

    Two friends of mine were going into knee surgery last year. They clearly had TMS, even their surgeons couldn't find anything wrong, but they kept searching for things that weren't there. One is a 16 year old very anxious girl, the other a 70 year old very anxious lady. The girl's parents rolled their eyes at me when I tried to explain TMS to them. The older lady just laughed. Both of them had the surgery and their pain has now shifted to the other knee. They're prepping for knee surgery again.

    I wrote what I believe was my best article last year called, "Why People Don't Want To Heal." After 12 years of doing this I can see the big picture, and it's highly complex. So I took a few months to write it all out into an article. But I couldn't get it published. The general rule of thumb is that the articles should be 600 words, and at the very most no more than 900. But you can't explain the truth in that few words, especially if it's complex like TMS can be. We live in a sound-bite society that only wants happiness if it takes them less than 10 minutes to find it. The magazines admit to me that it's absurd, but people will click off of articles if they're longer than 600 words. Is anyone still reading this post?

    So, as long as it's easy, the people will listen. And--as we know, drugs and surgery are easier for the majority than facing a life that is unhappy. This leads us to yet another great insight by the good doctor, "One of the unfortunate realities about working with a disorder like TMS is that most people will reject the idea until they are desperate for a solution."— John E. Sarno, MD, Healing Back Pain

    I had to hit rock bottom before I would listen. I read something by Enrique talking about this concept, using a dog sitting on a nail analogy. Good point Enrique (copyright, Enrique, 2013, TMSWiki). People are willing to suffer as long as they can complain, or count on science to save them, and get that monthly disability check. The greater picture is of denial (no association with a river in Egypt).

    It even gets more complex from there, but I have to save some in case the article ever gets published. Speaking of which, I hope everyone reads and "likes" the new article on Dr. Sarno. I had to keep it under 600 words, so it was extremely difficult to thank him in so few words. It's more difficult than you think. He did read it. I had hoped people would comment and thank him, but few did. If they do, I'll resend it to him.

    Happy 2014


    Msunn and Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) like this.
  7. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Steve, I love your quoting Forest and others and giving the attribution. Very subtle humor.

    I also loved reading about the two people who didn't believe in TMS and had knee surgery but it didn't
    help and the pain moved to the other knee and they're considering having the "good" knee operated on.

    Maybe if they had a third knee, that would solve their problem.

    How do I contact Dr. Sarno to thank him?
    Msunn likes this.
  8. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hack writers imitate, great writers steal.
  9. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Stella,

    This is an interesting thread and I appreciate everyone's comments. I'm a clinical social worker and in the profession of offering people tools and resources to improve their quality of life only to have the information ignored about 99% of the time. This is why there is such a high burn out rate in my profession. But I would like to offer this suggestion based on my experience: Do not give up on people. I have found that many times even though the information/tools/resources are ignored the first time around, that sometimes when offered next week, or next month, or next year people are ready to accept it. Then you have helped someone change their life. Timing is important, as is the spirit of the offering (truly as a gift, with no judgement).

    I discovered information on PPD last March. At the time I thought I knew everything about chronic pain having searched for answers and studied it for 20 years. However, my search occurred in waves. I would stop at times due to disappointment and frustration at not having found 'the cure', and then pick it up again in periods of desperation. Looking back over those 20 years, there were likely times when if I had been told about PPD, I wouldn't have thought that it applied to me. However, when I ran across it last March, I knew that PPD was the source of my pain and other numerous symptoms.

    A few months ago I provided someone that I thought could benefit from PPD information with a summary of the theory and some books and this website. The person didn't seem interested at the time. A few weeks ago I received an email from her thanking me for the information and saying that she had been pain free for the first time after reading one of Sarno's books.

    But I agree that when chronic pain is involved it is much easier to spark people's interest. This is part of the reason I've started using the term PPD instead of TMS. Perhaps we need someone to write a book that applies the techniques of treating PPD to non-pain types of symptoms. Or is there one out there that I'm not aware of?
    Stella and Msunn like this.
  10. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    I totally agree with Ellen. Timing, access, and persistence-of-message are vital. Don't give up on anyone, give them time to breathe and to accept their ego. When they decide to accept any information, they will heal, or they won't. It's their choice. It took me a long time to heal through persistent messaging because I'm not that smart.

    Ellen, I didn't understand why you switched the acronym TMS to PPD? I read your post here several times but I didn't connect with your reason for making this statement?.... "This is part of the reason I've started using the term PPD instead of TMS. Perhaps we need someone to write a book that applies the techniques of treating PPD to non-pain types of symptoms. Or is there one out there that I'm not aware of?"

    What are you differentiating between the two terms?

    Dr. Sarno clearly progressed through the years with his use of the phrase "TMS"...from Tension Myositis, to Tension Myoneural, to The Mindbody Syndrome, as he became more aware that most symptoms were brought about through thoughts and emotions--not just pain. In order to encompass his observations, beyond pain, he expanded his term TMS as he became more aware...from....TMS (Tension Myositis Syndrome) to TMS (Tension Myoneural Syndrome) to TMS (The Mindbody Syndrome).

    His magnum opus, The Divided Mind, summed this up, now supported by his colleagues in their respective fields.

    But his understanding of "non-pain types of symptoms" began well before The Divided Mind. In Healing Back Pain he wrote about the immune system, hypertension, the cardiovascular system, the derma, etc., and other mindbody effects.

    Then he spent more of his life-effort on a book that he titled, The Mindbody Prescription, that helped millions of people to understand that our emotions affect much more than just pain. So, within those 3 books he made his mark; our health, our symptoms, our suffering were far more than simply pain. So, when you said, "Perhaps we need someone to write a book that applies the techniques of treating PPD to non-pain types of symptoms. Or is there one out there that I'm not aware of?" Do you mean beyond Dr. Sarno's 3 books? I think the best health book I've ever read was, The Will to Live, by Arnold Hutschnecker. Maybe that's what you're asking?

    What is PPD?..what's the difference between that term and the good doctor's life-work called TMS, The Mindbody Syndrome? I want to know in order to help more people heal. The only thing that matters is that people heal. I had an MD tell me, "Steve, just because people are healing with Dr. Sarno's work doesn't mean that it works!" I didn't know how to respond to that. Isn't healing the goal?

    Msunn likes this.
  11. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hi Steve,

    Thanks for your response. I’m clearly a neophyte in all things TMS-related, but I will explain my reasoning for preferring the term PPD over TMS at this point in my education on the topic.

    As you say, the goal is to help others heal. I’ve found in my experience as a clinical social worker that if I can’t explain something in 3 sentences or less to people, I will lose them. In my limited attempts to explain TMS to a handful of others over the last 8 months (friends and acquaintances, not in a professional capacity), I’ve been unable to explain the term TMS succinctly enough to avoid having their eyes glaze over as I speak. I realize that this may be due to my lack of knowledge or skill on the topic.

    In the Sarno video recently posted on this site, he discusses TMS and TMS equivalents. This seems cumbersome to me. I don’t know the date of this video, but I realize now that this may pre-date his publication of the Mindbody Syndrome and the Divided Mind, and his evolution from Tension Myositis Syndrome to Tension Myoneural Syndrome and Mindbody Syndrome--the latter terms replacing the need to use ‘TMS equivalents’. (By the way, your post is the first time I’ve heard that TMS can stand for ‘The Mindbody Syndrome’ as I’ve only seen it abbreviated MBS.) So in searching for a term that is easier to explain to people, I’ve found (so far) that PPD works better. The problem I’ve encountered with Mindbody Syndrome is that many people equate ‘mind’ with cognition, or they think it implies some type of New Age phenomenon. I would like to use the more familiar term of ‘psychosomatic’, but unfortunately people believe that means that one’s symptoms are entirely imaginary. And I have to admit that in the past when running across anything that said Fibromyalgia was psychosomatic, I was immediately offended and stopped reading or listening.

    And my preference for PPD may reflect the fact that I’m a mental health provider and it feels more familiar to me. Also, I realize that I may be just over analyzing this, as I am prone to do.

    Regarding a book on non-pain syndromes—I’ve only read Dr. Sarno’s books one time and it is my intention to read them many more times. My initial impression was that the emphasis was on pain syndromes, though he does discuss non-pain syndromes. I read his books through the lenses of my own personal diagnoses and as a mental health provider. And while my own personal diagnoses include pain syndromes (Fibromyalgia, migraine), they also include Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, insomnia, anxiety to name a few, and I found myself still hungry for information on the role of TMS in non-pain syndromes. And as a mental health provider, I would like to see a book with an emphasis on the application of Sarno’s theories to anxiety, depression, and OCD. As Sarno points out, the mental health profession turned away from psychoanalytic theory and has emphasized cognitive-behavioral and behavioral interventions in recent times to address these disorders, which clearly do not heal TMS. I believe the program in Dr. Schubiner’s book would benefit people with non-pain syndromes, but because it has the word ‘pain’ in the title, I can’t get people who don’t experience physical pain to read it. Are you ready to write another book, Steve? One without the word ‘pain’ in the title?

    I agree that everything we need to know to heal the mindbody is contained in Dr. Sarno’s work. But it can take multiple readings and much effort to grasp, which most people aren’t willing to do. In no way should my preference for the term PPD be interpreted as discounting the Good Doctor’s wisdom and groundbreaking contributions to healing. I'm just struggling to find a way to increase the accessibility of the information.

    Stella and Msunn like this.
  12. Msunn

    Msunn Well known member

    Steve I'm not sure where to locate your article on Dr Sarno. I'd like to read it. Thanks
  13. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    Ellen, I try to keep it simple and not analyze TMS very much if at all.

    To me, it's all in simply accepting Dr. Sarno's and Steve's belief that most of our pain
    is not structural but psychological, from repressed emotions that can and often do
    go way back to our childhood. I think we heal by accepting that and not get into
    the details of what to call our pain.

    But you are a clinical social worker and doubtlessly analyze TMS more than I.

    I just keep it simple and it is working for me.
    Ellen likes this.
  14. Ellen

    Ellen Beloved Grand Eagle

    Dear Walt,
    Yes, you are right--over-analyzing it is!
  15. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    MSunn, I see Forest placed the article in "announcements" here at the Wiki. He and I have emailed about how best to coordinate these things, but we need to talk on the phone. I hope he posts it as a thread here. Dr. Sarno read it and so did Drs. Segal, Sopher, and Gwozdz. It's also posted at GoodNewsPlanet and several others.

    Anne, you are precious. I have good friends who are chiropractors and they won't talk to me any more. The last thing people in the industry want is for people to heal, at least before they retire. Your PT will always push for "more" options. They can't see beyond their training. There are a couple psychologists in Texas that do know TMS, not sure how close you are to them? But after 20 years you certainly have TMS. And you can heal, but something needs to change. As the sage wrote, "if you continue on the path you are on, you will get where you are headed." Don't study harder, change classes. You mentioned many sources for healing in this post, but when tens of thousands of us healed there was nothing but Dr. Sarno's one book. So, is it a matter of numbers? Or deeper belief?

    Ellen! (Clark Griswold), Were you the one who said you were into TMS 8 months? I can't remember. If not nevermind. But if so that's very early. I know exactly what you mean. It took me quite a few shows before I got the TMS elevator speech down to not lose people with that chicken-eyed stare. You lose people in the first sentence. People would rather live miserably than spend ten minutes learning and listening. So words do matter.

    The Sarno video on here is the one many of us have been hiding for years because it looks like an infomercial, we felt it diluted his great message. But the cat's out of the bag. It does predate his other stuff, good eye. In his career as he saw the bigger picture, TMS expanded to include all the other stuff beyond pain. I have the email he sent to me experimenting with terms like TPS and PNPS, but he said that "we can't erase the past" so TMS would ultimately stand for The MindBody Syndrome to cover all aspects of psychosomatic healing and symptoms. So his desire was the term TMS for these things and he isn't very happy that the term was usurped and replaced by people he mentored.

    You're also correct in that people often think "new agey" when they hear TMS. I've gotten that many times. "too new agey" for me Steve...but it's still true and it still works. But in my opinion 'psycho-physiological" is worse. That word "psycho" freaks people out like a stay at the Bates Motel. So, a rose by any other name... I use the term TMS because that's what Dr. Sarno wants. I make no claim to his work, I just help spread the message. Which reminds me, what is MBS? I've had people ask me that on occasion and you said it here. Maybe I will ask in another thread.

    TMS is the whole gamut of psycho-physiological disorders, The Mindbody Syndrome, as defined by the good doctor.

    Dr. Sarno's books do deal with everything beyond pain, that he witnessed. And I know it's true because people are emailing me to say that they are healing from all kinds of non-pain problems, from infections to vision, etc. My book certainly was intended to go waaaaaay beyond pain, and has worked well with many disorders, but I can't take the word "pain" from my title. It's glued on the front cover with Elmers.

    Keep doing your good work Ellen, we need people like you. If you want to talk sometime call me.

  16. Anne Walker

    Anne Walker Beloved Grand Eagle

    Steve, I think you are so wrong when you say that the last thing people in the industry want is for people to heal. I have read your book and I understand why you have the perspective you do, but I still think that it is not a fair assumption.
  17. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    I guess different people have different experiences with chiropractors.

    Years ago, I had pain on my tail bone after a fall and went to a chiropractor. He took an X-ray and said some of my vertebrae were out of alignment. He said it was like putting a foot on a hose, it blocked sending (something) to the part of me in pain.

    He began by giving me back adjustments three times a week, and I was going broke paying him. The sessions went down to twice a week and then once a week. His fee began at $75 (about 20 years ago), but
    I told him I couldn't afford that so he said it would be okay if I paid him whatever I could for each session. That started at $5 and soon went down to $1. He didn't complain. But after about a year he asked if I could possibly pay more so I upped it to $2 a visit. That went on for about another year. I was feeling fine after the first few visits
    and wondered if I was in a lifetime of visits.

    I never asked him that, but he said he wanted to keep my spine in alignment and whatever I paid was okay. I eventually moved away so that stopped my visits to him.

    That experience leads me to believe some chiropractors may not put money first, but it does seem like they look at treatment as a lifelong thing.

    Good luck to those who can find one like the one I had, who were
    content to get $2 a visit. I think they're very rare.
  18. Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021)

    Walt Oleksy (RIP 2021) Beloved Grand Eagle

    It's funny that some people reject the TMS theory because they think it's "New-agey."

    Dr. Sarno says in Healing Back Pain that the theory of our emotions causing physical pain
    goes back centuries, to when Hippocrates "advised his asthmatic patients to be wary of anger"
    because he believed that was what caused their symptom.

    Sarno traces the modern medical concept of the mind and body being separate entities
    back to the 17th century philosopher Rene Descartes and that has become "the model for
    medical practice and research."

    Many people who have tried medication and surgery have
    found that doesn't relieve their pain, but TMS does.
    So there should be no fear that TMS is "New-agey."
  19. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS Consultant

    Anne you're right, it was too wide of a net, I should have said "most" people in the industry don't want people to heal. I can prove it by the fact that when you tell them about TMS, and how their patients can heal from it, they reject it. People like Andrew Weil are rare.

    And by "don't want them to heal" I mean, of course, not that they are preventing healing, but that healing is secondary to "treating." None of that comes from my life bad experiences as written in my book, but from what has occurred since then with my TMS experience.

    You said that I'm "so wrong?" Would you like to make a bet with me? We'll pick some random professionals and we'll show them all about TMS and how their patients can heal with the knowledge of TMS. Then we'll see how many of them adopt it as a healing tool. My bet is "most" of them will reject it because healing is secondary to treating. This is most especially true for chiropractors where treating is all they do. I've had 2 chiros in my area read my book last year and tell me that I'm 100% correct, the people they see all have tension problems and that you cannot slip a disc, and that manipulations are not doing anything. But they both still go to work adjusting spines every day. The reason is, what would happen if all the people healed?...or decided they didn't need any chiro work? What would happen to their careers? Families? Money?

    So would you like to make a bet and have a wager? I think it would be fun. After doing this full time since 1999 I've seen the bad and the ugly, but rarely the good. That's why you're right, I shouldn't have implied that the entire industry is looking for failure. It's too blind to see any real end-goals. There have been a rare few along the way that have been open minded and have dug into TMS and have been trying to incorporate it into their practices. I've met several of them. Dr. Sopher comes to mind with his openness and willingness to do whatever he could to help his patients from their suffering. There are a few others too, but very few. Dr. Sarno said "less than a handful."

    So I stand corrected, I should have said most would rather treat than heal. The two are polar opposite goals.

  20. Anne Walker

    Anne Walker Beloved Grand Eagle

    Steve, I am curious if there are any practitioners who specialize in TMS that do not have any history of chronic pain. Perhaps you know. Everyone I have read and talked to personally does have some history that led them to explore and eventually accept TMS theory. My plan is once I have fully recovered, to really work on my family doctor, my PT, therapists, accupuncturists and yes, even my chiropractor. I will be living proof. All of these people I have known for over 15 years and they know me very well. I know they accept me as I am, with all my continual conditions and struggles. I am quite sure they see it as just part of who I am and they gave up long ago truly trying to cure me, but they like me and are always game to try and help me any way they can. I know they will be extremely surprised to see me condition free. And it will make them curious. I have already explained things to my family doctor. I started seeing him when he was fresh out of med school. He was in a band and takes care of all the Austin musicians. His father was a surgeon and he is extremely bright. When I spoke with him about TMS a few months ago he was open. He even told me about several patients of his that are similar to me. I think he views it as a stress/anxiety disorder. I am never willing to take any of the drugs he recommends and so I imagine he believes I am somehow comfortable with the state of things. Doctors are so busy. 15 years ago he would sit and talk with me for 20 minutes. Now I am lucky to get a focused 2 minutes, unless I talk about movies. This doctor had severe back pain and sciatica about ten years ago. Ruptured disc. He couldn't walk one day, had surgery the next, and hasn't had pain problems since. I am sure if this happens again and the surgery doesn't work, he will be very open to and have the time to read everything we have to offer. Afterwards I bet he will be working as a TMS doctor. Perhaps unconsciously "most" health practitioners are choosing to maintain their security rather than actively exploring and advocating a program that could truly heal their patients. Steve, do you think you would have written your book and be where you are today if you had not suffered in the way you did? I realize tens of thousands of people healed themselves with the aid of Sarno's book. They went against the establishment, they took charge of their lives and made it happen. I respect and admire all of them. But things are changing. Dr Sarno is the pioneer. Everytime I turn around I see someone who is coming to a similar conclusion from another direction. So much brain research supports Sarno's work. Its all paving the way for a massive switch in thinking. I am not going to take your bet(although I am a gaming woman) for the reason that I think it can take considerable time for someone to adopt a methodology once an idea is introduced. A practitioner who has invested their entire life in a particular mode of thinking is not going to just throw that out the window unless they were already seriously questioning the validity of their practice. I don't think this should be the basis for whether they genuinely care or want to help their clients/patients. We are all getting bombarded with ideas that "work'. How we establish what actually does work and doesn't is the question. Chiropractors seem to come up a lot in these discussions and perhaps they should go in their own category. We all most likely have a lot to say about them. I know there are a lot of doctors, accupuncturists, and physical therapists who also have a lot to say about them. I think psychologists have the most to gain from the acceptance of TMS. Its a gold mine! Why are they resistant? How satisfying to take someone in excruciating pain and within weeks to several months, maybe a year, have them happy and pain free. What a great job. And yet there are only a handful currently. The health care industry need not ever worry about all people healing. We are currently faced with a landslide of health problems. We all know what makes us fat but that doesn't help the obesity epidemic much. There is a direct connection between weight and diabetes, diabetes and dementia... there will unfortunately be plenty of work in the healthcare industry for at least decades to come. Currently there is a huge shortage of geriatric doctors just at the time when our population is aging. If everyone is somehow miraculously cured of TMS there will still be plenty of work.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
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