Microbiome vs Brain

M

mikeinlondon

Well known member
I was having a think following the other recent post ('floxed') about pain sensations and the brain but, in particular, anti-biotic use. Lets use the term "fibromyalgia" to mean pain in the absence of tissue/structural pathology i.e. TMS. A study has shown that replacing fibromyalgia microbiota with a healthy microbiota substantially alleviated pain in mice. An open-label trial in women with fibromyalgia showed that transplantation of a healthy microbiota is associated with reduced pain and improved quality of life (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40280127/ (The gut microbiota promotes pain in fibromyalgia - PubMed)).

I've been in serious pain since I completed a course of anti-biotics (my nerves are hyper-sensitised). I do believe my nervous system is sensitised and in danger mode which is amplifying the pain signals in my body. Some of these danger signals have come from my research on reddit, google, doctors, fears etc. I'm now using TMS therapy principles to reduce exposure to fear mongering e.g. no more time on reddit, google ... allowing fears but not fearing fears ... changing beliefs ... no more doctors unless necessary etc. However, I do wonder if other 'danger' signals are coming from my gut and that is influencing the brain. The gut (our second brain) influences the brain in such a significant way. Recently, when I say to myself I'm safe I get the thought saying you're not safe ... your gut is compromised ... danger. I don't know what to do about that. Any ideas? Has Sarno and others missed a trick with the gut and how that influences the brain? Perhaps those that didn't improve with Sarno's TMS therapy were those with compromised guts. I have no idea but this whole concept of the brain-gut connection adds a layer of complexity to TMS. Am I overthinking it? I've got such an obsessive-compulsive mind always needing answers to things. It's so exhausting sometimes.

FYI - Recently I send messages of safety to my brain. Usually they are accepted but I now get thoughts that I'm not safe following the anti-biotic use in Sept '24. My mind is now telling me that the antibiotics changed my gut composition and I'm in danger. Given the mind-gut connection that puts fear in my mind. I even had one GP that told me that a very unlucky few get severe chronic pains following antibiotic use (one in a million) but will get better over time. Surely, I can't be that unlucky! Most other doctors I've spoken to have refuted this but it's playing on my mind a lot today and I don't know why. It's making me very anxious. There seems to be a lot of trauma surrounding the antibiotic use and the pain sensations. My GI told me that the antibiotics are so powerful it changes your gut composition forever. Do you see? There's a lot of fear and emotional charge around this. Any advice on how I can assure my brain that I'm safe? I had a gut analysis earlier this year and I don't suffer from dysbiosis so I know my gut composition isn't "bad'.
 
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Yes, in the nicest way possible, you are overthinking. Chronic stress, perpetual fight or flight is ruinous to the GI system.

the antibiotics, and the illness that warranted them could’ve just as easily been the straw that broke the camels back, or the drop that overflowed the glass, they aren’t necessarily the thing that broke you. What was your life like before the antibiotics?m

I wouldn’t put too much stock in the thoughts of your gut is compromised, us tmsers are prone to major health anxiety, when we start thinking our anxiety is intuition, we tread a dangerous course.

how to fix them? https://www.youtube.com/@the_mindful_gardener I’ve been really enjoying their stuff. More about allowing all this stuff than trying to fix with messages of safety. How effective are messages going to be when our actions and unconscious thoughts are indicating otherwise. More of ‘okay pains/thoughts you’re here, come along with me as I try to go about my day as best as I can, in whatever way that means to me.’
 
Rabscuttle said:
Yes, in the nicest way possible, you are overthinking. Chronic stress, perpetual fight or flight is ruinous to the GI system.

the antibiotics, and the illness that warranted them could’ve just as easily been the straw that broke the camels back, or the drop that overflowed the glass, they aren’t necessarily the thing that broke you. What was your life like before the antibiotics?m

I wouldn’t put too much stock in the thoughts of your gut is compromised, us tmsers are prone to major health anxiety, when we start thinking our anxiety is intuition, we tread a dangerous course.
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Sanity. Thank you. Wise words. Possibly the straw, you are right. Prior to this I was obsessed with resolving my Crohn’s disease which was getting out of control. My whole life was focussed on the disease. I didn’t realise this at the time but it consumed me. I also supported my sister who had CPTSD. She used me as her therapist bring up negative childhood trauma that affected us both.

I believe that both the factors above contributed to the pains but my TMS brain is obsessed with the antibiotics. This obsession came this morning after an EMDR session. I think EMDR peeled some onion layers and this came up with strong thoughts.

Anyways, thank you for your reply. You’ve helped provide some calmness to my TMS brain which was firing this morning with DANGER.
 
@mikeinlondon Your whole post was literally a OCD rumination about antibiotics use. When you get stuck you need to interrupt and stop it. Several ways to do it-I currently just tell myself to stop out loud and refocus on something else. It may take me a couple of tries to get my brain to stop. But this rumination is feeding into your fear. And we all know fear is TMS.

I'm dealing with severe IBS symptoms and have gone down that road of what ifs. The conventional drs ran all their tests. Then I learned about SIBO and the microbiome and went to a functional dr. That was a joke. They told me how I was ruining by gut biome with my current lifestyle. Everything had to be filtered and organic foods. I had to take supplements. And guess what. It didn't work. I do believe that we have a microbiome that can be affected by our lifestyle. But it is not near as sensitive as people want to make it out to be. I think that we if we get into control of our repressed emotions and regulate the nervous system we can start to get better and heal.

So think about what you are doing to heal right now. Are you currently doing a program? Are you being consistent? Remember the pain is about your emotions-not the pain itself.

I hope I am not coming across as harsh. That's not my intention. But this is literally what I have to say to myself when I get stuck saying "what if it's not TMS and I will never get better?" Then I have to refocus on TMS instead. I currently use my evidence list (on my phone) or look on my notes on my computer that basically has different quotes from books or podcasts. And then lastly, find something fun to do. What are your hobbies? I struggle with this right now. I don't know what my hobbies are. I haven't allowed myself to enjoy my life in a long time.
 
@mikeinlondon
Oh, Mike! It is SO hard— on a daily basis— to stay positive and keep the faith! You are so much like me! Everything in me wants to research, analyze, and re-evaluate, journal things into the ground—etc, etc. Despite all the wise council received here and elsewhere, I usually feel tempted that if I don’t do this, I wonder if I will ever recover.

Everyone with TMS thinks they could possibly be the exception. That’s the big temptation. I’m the one case that’s not going to get better. How I fight that is this: I know people on this forum— really well— who were in my opinion, crushed by TMS. Couldn’t have been more hopeless. And they got better. Did they get better fast? No. But they got better. Did they get better 100%. No. (not yet!) but they got better to the point that they live pretty well.

It takes a lot of mind control. A ton! To just let go and go with the process— and have days on end where it seems like nothing changes.

It takes a lot of patience and a lot of time to heal a frazzled nervous system. Don’t get discouraged!

I’m so glad @Rabscuttle recommended the Mindful Gardener. His name is Helmut. He had something like 75 symptoms, including lots of gut issues. His recovery story is a good place to start. It’s here:

Then his YouTube posts. Lately I’m really into listening to him. (He’s actually pretty funny, too!) Try this one. I like it a lot! https://www.youtube.com/live/pMPl55WKF28?si=JYTX53Kbp8DHDFn6

It’s so hard to be patient when every day hurts so much. But don’t give up hope and don’t stop believing! Keep doing baby steps. Every day. One more little step. Teach your brain you are safe by doing things. (Stop thinking!) Yesterday I baked a cake. (It was so hard!) :eek: But I did it!
 
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Diana-M said:
@mikeinlondon
Oh, Mike! It is SO hard— on a daily basis— to stay positive and keep the faith! You are so much like me! Everything in me wants to research, analyze, and re-evaluate, journal things into the ground—etc, etc. Despite all the wise council received here and elsewhere, I usually feel tempted that if I don’t do this, I wonder if I will ever recover.

Everyone with TMS thinks they could possibly be the exception. That’s the big temptation. I’m the one case that’s not going to get better. How I fight that is this: I know people on this forum— really well— who were in my opinion, crushed by TMS. Couldn’t have been more hopeless. And they got better. Did they get better fast? No. But they got better. Did they get better 100%. No. (not yet!) but they got better to the point that they live pretty well.

It takes a lot of mind control. A ton! To just let go and go with the process— and have days on end where it seems like nothing changes.

It takes a lot of patience and a lot of time to heal a frazzled nervous system. Don’t get discouraged!

I’m so glad @Rabscuttle recommended the Mindful Gardener. His name is Helmut. He had something like 75 symptoms, including lots of gut issues. His recovery story is a good place to start. It’s here:

Then his YouTube posts. Lately I’m really into listening to him. (He’s actually pretty funny, too!) Try this one. I like it a lot! https://www.youtube.com/live/pMPl55WKF28?si=JYTX53Kbp8DHDFn6

It’s so hard to be patient when every day hurts so much. But don’t give up hope and don’t stop believing! Keep doing baby steps. Every day. One more little step. Teach your brain you are safe by doing things. (Stop thinking!) Yesterday I baked a cake. (It was so hard!) :eek: But I did it!
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I thank you Diana, for introducing him to me.
 
“@mikeinlondon Your whole post was literally a OCD rumination about antibiotics use. When you get stuck you need to interrupt and stop it. Several ways to do it-I currently just tell myself to stop out loud and refocus on something else. It may take me a couple of tries to get my brain to stop. But this rumination is feeding into your fear. And we all know fear is TMS. “

Here’s the truth from @Joulegirl

OCD is a common TMS symptom of underlaying anxiety. It’s another distraction from hard truths of emotions. When it is manifesting this strong, her approach is the best and works over time. It can still happen to me with worrisome topics but I can see it for what it is now, and switch it off and not believe it. EMDR can help with some of the deep stuff over time but you also need to be actively training yourself out of the OCD habit of thinking. It’s a two pronged approach.
 
Thank you for you words, Diana. Although I take offense that you didn't Fedex me a slice of your cake! -:) I love cake ... yum in my tum.

@Joulegirl: "And we all know fear is TMS". This is it! Spot on! I've come to the conclusion that TMS is chronic fear within the subconscious. I'm not convinced on Sarno's theory i.e. TMS = underlying rage. The more I experience my symptoms and the more I mindfully watch my mind the more I realise that there is a significant association between fear and TMS. I do believe there is rage somewhere there but I do not think it's the cause. Just my opinion. I think the trick out of TMS is ending the fear loop i.e. not resolving the rage (whatever that may be). That's why I connect with Dan B's videos so much as this is exactly his message.
 
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Just a thought.

If a thought comes up that is a fear inducing thought would you:

a) Turn your focus away from it by distractions
b) Rationalise with your brain and say it’s not a valid thought and provide valid reasons why you say that.

I’m thinking that option “a” may cause resistance and persistence within the brain.

I don’t know y’all as I’ve never met you guys in person but one thing I noticed about how y’all come across and the people Dan interviews is that we share some very similar personality traits. I feel very connected to all of you even though I don’t know you. I hope you understand what I mean.
 
@mikeinlondon I have OCD and this is what I do: I tell myself "Stop" out loud. And then I literally walk away from the compulsion. So in your example, your compulsion would be to "rationalize" with your brain with facts. The brain is already lit up with the rumination-throwing some facts on it to stop it would actually keep you thinking more. You can't rationalize when you are in a rumination.

If I get a thought rumination I still tell myself out loud "stop" and then I become mindful of the activity that I am doing. Let's say it sorting laundry or I'm at work on a project. I would literally just tell myself what I am doing as I do it-"I'm sorting the laundry or I'm working on a Purchase Order" and just concentrate on that until the rumination subsides. And if you aren't doing anything at the moment you will just need to find something to do so you can focus on that one thing. It takes so much practice but it has helped me start to stop the negative thinking.

BTW-the "stop" method is from @Baseball65. I wish a therapist would have told me it a lot earlier in my life. Instead they tried Exposure Therapy would dysregulate my nervous system even more! No wonder it didn't work!
 
mikeinlondon said:
Just a thought.

If a thought comes up that is a fear inducing thought would you:

a) Turn your focus away from it by distractions
b) Rationalise with your brain and say it’s not a valid thought and provide valid reasons why you say that.

I’m thinking that option “a” may cause resistance and persistence within the brain.

I don’t know y’all as I’ve never met you guys in person but one thing I noticed about how y’all come across and the people Dan interviews is that we share some very similar personality traits. I feel very connected to all of you even though I don’t know you. I hope you understand what I mean.
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I’ll be honest, I’d pick b). But only for things I can refute. This is where evidence sheets come in really handy. You can refute your brain trying to prove it’s not TMS. Or, you can say, “Everyone who does the work eventually gets better.” Or quote a passage from Sarno. These all work well for me. But I wouldn’t get into any kind of scientific argument with your brain that requires googling or research!
 
Diana-M said:
I’ll be honest, I’d pick b). But only for things I can refute. This is where evidence sheets come in really handy. You can refute your brain trying to prove it’s not TMS. Or, you can say, “Everyone who does the work eventually gets better.” Or quote a passage from Sarno. These all work well for me. But I wouldn’t get into any kind of scientific argument with your brain that requires googling or research!
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This is my thinking too. It’s just how my brain works. We think alike, Diana. BTW - In the end I blocked Google, Reddit and some other misinformation/spam sites from my web browser. I believe all those sites just increase fear. Not good for a TMS brain in fight or flight mode.
 
mikeinlondon said:
If a thought comes up that is a fear inducing thought would you:

a) Turn your focus away from it by distractions
b) Rationalise with your brain and say it’s not a valid thought and provide valid reasons why you say that.
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I do neither. Personally, I've found the answer to be to simply recognise and keep remembering and reminding myself that these thoughts are my over zealous primitive lizard brain trying to protect me by making me fearful, and I then get on with doing stuff as best I can despite any physical symptoms.
 
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