Lesson (almost) learned

Diana-M said:
My sister is a narcissist. I knew that she made me crazy and gave me symptoms— but I didn’t actually know she was a narcissist until I started working here on the forum. Evidently narcissists can completely destroy your health and your mind. They are very dangerous to your well-being.

I’ve been avoiding her for months, and yesterday I decided to allow a very brief phone conversation with her, which focused mainly on a book she was reading. It seemed harmless. But I know she was setting things up to have more access to me in the future. I immediately regretted it and ruminated on it the rest of the day.

Last night, all night, I had 10 out of 10 pain, burning, spasms, cramping —things I haven’t had in half a year. This morning I was mad at myself for causing this unnecessary pain.

I just hate estrangement in families. It seems so wrong, sad and unnecessary. I don’t know how to say to her, “I’m never going to talk to you again.” I also don’t want to be on the run from her the rest of my life. A firm line in the sand would give me some peace. I know my goodism is a factor. I don’t want HER to suffer. I also know my fear of abandonment plays in. When we were growing up, ironically she used to be my comfort. We were in the trenches together.

Man, is my family the gift that keeps on giving!

Serendipitously — yesterday afternoon, I ran into an amazing book, Crushing Doubt, by pain psychologist Dan Ratner. I sucked up chapter 9 about power. Every single word spoke to my heart. I lack power, and I need it. She represents loss of power to me. She was the cat, and I was the mouse that she played with. (I didn’t even know!)

What should I do? Any advice? Estrangement time?
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This is complicated. Anything to do with family is hard from a TMS standpoint. We grew up with them when we were little before we had our rational brains. We are biologically connected to them. We love them. We hate them. We are hurt by them. We want them to love us. We want them to stay away from us. It's a big old jumble of emotions.

I had good success when I told my mother (in real life, not on paper) that the things she said to me hurt me. I asked her why she said them.
She was flabbergasted that those things hurt me. My mother who was not one to apologize, said sincerely, "I'm sorry. I never meant that to hurt you."
She was surely shocked that I mentioned it because we weren't a family that talked about our emotions or our hurts. She was also surprised that some meaningless things to her hurt me. She really did love me, probably more than almost anything, but it was just her way. How she talked. How she was.
Once I started confronting on things that she did that I didn't like, things were much better.

Later when she was terminally ill and getting very mean and nasty it was very upsetting and anxiety producing and all kinds of other horrors. My husband wanted me to cut her out. Stop talking to her. He said it was too much for me. But as you mentioned the goodism. The guilt. I had to make a choice. Which pain is worse? The pain of how she is treating me or the pain of the guilt of cutting her out. I decided that the pain of cutting her out was worse.

What is the situation with your sister? Are you in a position to re-frame the relationship with her?
Let her know how she makes you feel? Would you be open to having a relationship with her that stayed away from the topics that cause pain?
 
Booble said:
What is the situation with your sister? Are you in a position to re-frame the relationship with her?
Let her know how she makes you feel? Would you be open to having a relationship with her that stayed away from the topics that cause pain?
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Hi, Booble!

Thanks for your story. I love how you were able to work it out with your mom.

I have actually tried to talk to my sister about all this— About how she hurts me, boundary violations, all sorts of things. One of the problems with narcissists is, they are literally unable to be wrong. If they acknowledge that they’re wrong in any way, it’s as if you are destroying them as a human being. One of the reasons psychologists talk about no contact with narcissists is because they really aren’t capable of change. Very very rarely can they change.

I have thought of keeping boundaries on certain topics. I’ve been able to have a little bit of progress by sticking with books and writing, which we both like. She’s a huge boundary violator and she will jump out of the topic almost guaranteed, especially the more times you talk to her. I thought of only texting, which works a little bit too.

My biggest problem is that for some reason, even thinking that she might call, or might text, makes me physically ill. I think until I can unravel why I get so incredibly upset around her (other than the obvious!) I won’t be able to negotiate much with her.

The truth is everything is about her. (She’s a narcissist.) Conversation is focused on her. And her main objective, as a narcissist, is to be better than me, so each conversation is about learning where my weaknesses are and how she can use them against me —later or during that current conversation. So that means I have to give her no information about myself— which isn’t really much of a relationship. And often I make slips— I tell her things I know she will use against me— because I just want to have a real relationship. (This is the part of me that I don’t trust.)

So it all comes down to me just wanting to talk to her because she’s my sister and because of guilt. But it might not be enough reason for me to destroy myself over.

So that’s where I am right now.
 
Diana-M said:
Hi, Booble!

Thanks for your story. I love how you were able to work it out with your mom.

I have actually tried to talk to my sister about all this— About how she hurts me, boundary violations, all sorts of things. One of the problems with narcissists is, they are literally unable to be wrong. If they acknowledge that they’re wrong in any way, it’s as if you are destroying them as a human being. One of the reasons psychologists talk about no contact with narcissists is because they really aren’t capable of change. Very very rarely can they change.

I have thought of keeping boundaries on certain topics. I’ve been able to have a little bit of progress by sticking with books and writing, which we both like. She’s a huge boundary violator and she will jump out of the topic almost guaranteed, especially the more times you talk to her. I thought of only texting, which works a little bit too.

My biggest problem is that for some reason, even thinking that she might call, or might text, makes me physically ill. I think until I can unravel why I get so incredibly upset around her (other than the obvious!) I won’t be able to negotiate much with her.

The truth is everything is about her. (She’s a narcissist.) Conversation is focused on her. And her main objective, as a narcissist, is to be better than me, so each conversation is about learning where my weaknesses are and how she can use them against me —later or during that current conversation. So that means I have to give her no information about myself— which isn’t really much of a relationship. And often I make slips— I tell her things I know she will use against me— because I just want to have a real relationship. (This is the part of me that I don’t trust.)

So it all comes down to me just wanting to talk to her because she’s my sister and because of guilt. But it might not be enough reason for me to destroy myself over.

So that’s where I am right now.
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Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I honestly think I'm a bit of a narcissist so I kind of understand.

Have you explored why her behavior bothers you so much?
Why her contacting you brings out such emotions?

She obviously has her own problems. As a narcissist, she craving love. She has to be right, in order to be loved. She has to one up you, to prove she is worthy of love. To her, it's not really about you except that you might take some of Mother's love. She needs it all. She's broken that way.

Why do you think it bothers you so much ? To the point of getting physically ill.
How does her neurosis intersect with yours?

Is she a younger sister or an older sister?
 
@Diana-M
You and I have talked of some of this before.
One of my best friends is mentally ill and narcissistic to a degree. I cut her out. It was hard because I have sympathy for her illness and the fact she was raised by addicted narcissists, but she places her therapy needs not on professionals but on “friends”. She lives in a passionate hate for her family, all of whom are dead.
Yes, I absolutely recognized co-dependency in my sympathy, and that it was hurting me (my mom also had narcissistic tendencies like @Joulegirl )
I knew I had to break ties when my friend started texting me horrible accusations, and telling friends I was a terrible person. I did not know this was a continuation of the same behavior she had to family, because she always blamed them for “starting” things. Months after my breaking ties with her she was hospitalized for several months. Nothing has changed and she blames her situation on me. Others are cutting ties with me.
At one point this would have me in knots, but no longer. I felt horribly wrong and guilty for awhile after breaking ties but I decided I’d rather have no close friends if this is how I’d be treated. I worked on loving myself more than anyone else. Doing things I love without guilt, talking back my power that I was giving away. Recognizing that I needed to learn skills to deal with situations including saying neutral “no’s” (how one deals with narcissists) and walking away. No engagement at all unless approached, then highly impersonal - like Ratner says, open no doors to let them in. None.
I’ve even limited some contact with favorite friends who can’t set their own boundaries with person (not telling them personal things).
I no longer care much about the drama. I refuse to let this crap be a trigger for me.
At one point there was a thread somewhere on this forum and someone posted a YouTube channel of a guy giving short and well directed advice on being a people pleaser and having narcissists in your life. I’ve lost the name of the channel but that is what I used to learn valuable skills. I took notes, practiced dialog, practiced what to do in a variety of situations. Learned about boundaries and how to set them, communicate them and keep them. It’s hard. You will have triggering emotions around them but this softens in time.
I am very proud of myself for setting and keeping my boundaries around this person. I don’t care what others think about it, and they don’t know how I was treated by this person. If they can’t see that she has obvious serious issues, that’s not my problem. I also refuse to discuss her with anyone since gossip fuels the fire.
 
@Booble
oh believe me, there are tons of issues, explored quite a bit; and I’m sure some not explored yet.

@Cactusflower
That’s a great example of bravery and self-love. Thank you for that story. And for the tips about boundaries.
 
Cactusflower said:
I also refuse to discuss her with anyone since gossip fuels the fire.
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This (above) I've found in my own life in dealing with difficult people to include narcissists to be very important! I cut a 'friend' out of my life who is a narcissist. Our mutual friends wanted to discuss the situation with me and I just said that I hadn't discussed what had been 'the final straw' for me with her (I saw there was no point because she would only gaslight me and I'd had enough of her antics) and therefore I didn't think it was appropriate to discuss it with them. I also knew that if I explained that she was a narcissist, they would argue against that (because there are 'none so blind as those who will not see', i.e. 'normal' people, for some strange, I think 'innate', reason simply refuse to recognise and believe it and then choose to turn against you... you become the villain!).
 
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Rabscuttle said:
That said, I think there is a tremendous amount to be gained in regards to overcoming our symptoms by confronting these sorts of relationship dynamics that have historically cause us stress. We, with time can teach our nervous system that we can be stressed and agitated, but we don’t need symptoms. I think ultimately it is no different than confronting a physical activity that cripples us with fear of the subsequent symptoms.
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Well said.
 
BloodMoon said:
This (above) I've found in my own life in dealing with difficult people to include narcissists to be very important! I cut a 'friend' out of my life who is a narcissist. Our mutual friends wanted to discuss the situation with me and I just said that I hadn't discussed what had been 'the final straw' for me with her (I saw there was no point because she would only gaslight me and I'd had enough of her antics) and therefore I didn't think it was appropriate to discuss it with them. I also knew that if I explained that she was a narcissist, they would argue against that (because there are 'none so blind as those who will not see', i.e. 'normal' people, for some strange, I think 'innate', reason simply refuse to recognise and believe it and then choose to turn against you... you become the villain!).
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100% truth
TMS-ers who are people pleasers find the idea of "cutting" someone out of their life difficult, always wanting to throw a bone someone elses way. CUTTING means gone, done, no thoughts, no actions, no talking, no nothing about that person. If they approach you, reserved and distance politeness "hello" and move away. They will do anything to draw you back into the drama to continue the process because it's their own way of coping. When they no longer have someone to play these games with, they tend to totally breakdown and are very confused. I do the same with sociopaths.
 
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