1. Alan has completed the new Pain Recovery Program. To read or share it, use this link: http://go.tmswiki.org/newprogram
    Dismiss Notice

Learned pathways and neuroplasticity is a medical dead end.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by BeWell, Oct 16, 2016.

  1. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2016
  2. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    BeWell, are you saying that emotions, the mind and the unconscious are happening outside the brain? Or inside the brain but outside the neural pathways? If neurons are not involved in the mind, what is that medium in which the mind exist?

    As much as you would like to see the opposite, the latest research in neuroscience proves Sarno's empirical findings of 50 years ago. Emotional circuit of the brain is residing in the same part of the brain that is responsible for pain, movements and sympathetic nervous system reactions. When emotional circuit is overloaded, it misfires into the physical circuit, thus causing pain. It is all driven by stress hormones and physiological processes in our brains and body (aka mindbody, per Sarno). Robert Sapolsky, a Stanford neuroendocrinologist, wrote many books on how our emotions (fear, anxiety etc) are connected to physical in our body.

    I read some of your prior posts talking about mind as software existing separately from the neurons (hardware) in the brain. I have been professionally employed in the computer field for over 35 years and can assure you that software may be written on paper or on a memory stick, but it will be dead and not functional unless it is being executed by the hardware. Unplug your computer - and your software will be dead. Computer hardware can exist without software, it would be purposeless but still alive, assuming it is plugged in and there is right voltage in the circuit. Computer software cannot exist without hardware. It is not a mythical immaterial ether that ancient Greek philosophers talked about, it is a series of very physical changes in voltage in the computer circuit.

    As a matter of fact, the analogy is precisely accurate: mind as software is inseparable from neural pathways and from the body (hardware). The Mindbody Syndrome is what TMS is about - notice the 'body' part in the word 'mindbody'.
     
    pspa and plum like this.
  3. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2016
  4. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    It is your amygdala, also called "reptilian brain", produces fight or flight response. It is not a brain cell, it is a large number of brain cells, communicating through the neurons. I am not a neuroscientist to know exactly whether the mind is zapping or snapping through the neurons, but the process of a panic attack involves specific stress hormones (chemicals) released into the bloodstream as commanded by the brain via electric impulses going through the neurons. Brain scans show very low voltage electrical signals going through the brain all the time, panic attacks not being exception, they just result in a storm, rather than normal white noise of the normal brain activity.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    plum and pspa like this.
  5. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Yet another post on the same false dichotomy. Drs. Schubiner and Hanscom completely agree that emotions are at the root of these problems. That they attempt to describe the mechanism in more concrete/neurological than Freudian terms is really beside the point.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    plum likes this.
  6. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    pspa, totally agree with you. My point is that Dr. Sarno was so much ahead of the neuroscientists in his empirical discovery 50 years ago, that it took enormous courage on his part to withstand the criticism of the medical community for his "medically unfounded" approach. He stood firm because he simply knew that his method was helping people, therefore, he knew he was right.

    Times have changed, neuroscience finally caught up with the visionary doctor, and now they can explain in physiological terms what is going on in the brain and the body. I agree with you, it is unproductive and completely unfair to attack those doctors who explain the same phenomenon in different terms but conceptually completely identically to Dr. Sarno. I doubt Dr. Sarno would want to become idolized by dogmatic followers who throw the baby out with the water.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    plum likes this.
  7. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Dr. Sarno said the brain is so complex we may never understand the "mechanisms" of TMS--and, that it doesn't matter. I agree with him, all that gray matter is a bit gray. Searching for ways of "fixing" the "broken" structural wiring, that may be the cause of TMS, will distract from it's true cause: the need for have a psychological defense mechanism, from dealing with painful unacceptable emotions. The emotions create the release of hormones, not the other way around. Electro-shock therapy is coming back into vogue--maybe some electro-stimuli will straighten out those twisted neural pathways. "Scientists" are experimenting with total head transplants on monkeys in China, they were trained here in the US--I want an early Robert Redford model please.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    MrRage and balto like this.
  8. TG957

    TG957 Beloved Grand Eagle

    That is hilarious!
     
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  9. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

  10. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2016
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  11. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    Interesting discussion, but in the end, I think it's just an interesting discussion that shows how hard it is for human beings to communicate our ideas to each other. There is WAY too much room for miscommunication and misinterpretation.

    In other words, what makes sense to you, doesn't necessarily make sense to the person right next to you, and trying to force your understanding on that person typically leads to conflict.

    Allowing for the differences that make each of us unique is a much more relaxing way to live. Trying to fit what you think you know into a nice rigid box that will define your experience is not going to lead to contentment - and it might lead, again, to conflict.

    Just my unique opinion, of course. I tend to spend more time in the Support and SEP forums than in the Discussion forum, so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.
     
    Ren, balto, juderocketqueen and 6 others like this.
  12. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    Excellent and a very grounded response, as usual Jan.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  13. JanAtheCPA

    JanAtheCPA Beloved Grand Eagle

    It's wonderful to see you back, Mike - and what a fabulous new avatar!
     
    MrRage likes this.
  14. mike2014

    mike2014 Beloved Grand Eagle

    I'd like to add, one shouldn't meditate to achieve neuroplasticity, but one should only meditates to achieve a state of being where the amygdala is calm, fear is reduced and healing is possible.

    Neuroplasticity is a natural byproduct of meditating or using one of the techniques.

    A technique that works for one, may not work for all and it's about utilising a methodology that suits you.

    Healing isn't black and white and sometimes one must try various techniques until something resonates. Even Dr Sarno recognised this and mentions some require additional therapy with one of his trusted psychologist. I'm all for championing Dr Sarnos work, but that's not to say that we should discredit the work of Dr Schubiner who has and will continue to help countless others.

    This forum has always been about exchanging, sharing and respecting one another views, regardless of whether we agree or not.

    Much of mind body healing, is very grey, nobody has all of the answers but we should be promoting a healthy environment where we exchange useful information in a respectful and pleasent manner.

    Sorry to rant, but this forum has always meant alot and I'd hate to see it suffer.

    Have a great evening,
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  15. Andy Bayliss

    Andy Bayliss TMS Coach & Beloved Grand Eagle

    I agree with both of your comments here. Dr. Sarno opened an incredible pathway for healing, and we may each find ways that the community he helped start does not meet our needs/situation perfectly. Each person needs to find their own way, work with their doubts, investigate the specifics of Dr. Sarno's work, and their own experience. The basic approach is irrefutable in its results. Thank you.
    Andy B
     
  16. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2016
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  17. MrRage

    MrRage Peer Supporter

    In terms of recovery, this seems like an argument going nowhere. As long as the patient understands the 'emotional' and 'unconscious' factors involved in their symptoms, they will recovery. Most of the debate centers around theory and while the theoretical particulars are undoubtedly interesting to study, they aren't very applicable in the recovery process.
     
    grapefruit and Forest like this.
  18. BeWell

    BeWell Well known member

    [Deleted at BeWell's request]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2016
  19. balto

    balto Beloved Grand Eagle

    I think this is the reason why the conventional medical community is slow to adopt or at least investigate Dr. Sarno's TMS theory. When you "childed" someone, when you called someone "criminal" and "crooks", usually that someone will instantly got offended and will spend all his/her time and effort defending himself and criticizing TMS.
    Conventional Doctors are conditioned to think that way. They spent years of studying and training to think the way they think. It will take time for them to change. It will take a softer approach than criticizing them. It will take more success stories, it will take more doctors who were healed the mind body way ...
     
    Tennis Tom likes this.
  20. balto

    balto Beloved Grand Eagle

    oh and I think you understand neuroplasticity and pain pathway, it may help some people heal a little faster.
    I got to run, when I have time I will let you know why I think that way.
    Thanks, Hope to have to constructive and polite discussion here later.
     
    JanAtheCPA likes this.

Share This Page