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Is TMS a incurable disease?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by hodini, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Depression, fear, anxiety are all TMS affective emotional symptoms, though you may have rid yourself of the physical ones, you may still have TMS in it's affective iterations. Your desire to be 100% "cured" exhibit the "perfectionist" personality, and TMS'ers may have the universal inferiority complex too. If you've been seeing your therapist for a long time, and you are still stuck, try a TMS therapist. I've heard a lot of people at this forum say that their non-TMS therapist told them they understand TMS, I have doubts on their effectiveness. Then why don't they become TMS therapists and post their contact on this board? If you are going to have trouble firing your current therapist, keep seeing him/her, and also contact a genuine TMS therapist for a few sessions, and see if it makes a difference. Don Dubin (deceased) was Dr. Schechter's go to therapist, and he told me he never had to do more then a dozen sessions to get the TMS message across to a client.

    As far as perfectionism, practice meaningless acts of f'ing up. It takes some practice to break the perfectionist/goodist personality traits, but after a while you get better at it and start doing things because you want to, and not because the cultural imperative pressures you to. Before you feel pressured into doing something, take a TMS moment, take a breath and say "NO" to yourself, asking yourself if you really want to do this--it's that boundaries thing. When trying to do something new, take a chance to f'up, and consider it a learning experience--TMS'ers are also procrastinators, stuck between fight and flight--frozen. Babe Ruth, one of the greatest home run hitters of all time, also held the record for most strike outs. Practice meaningless acts of screwing up--what are they going to do to you, the jails are full.

    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
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  2. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    1. hodini said:

    ... term TMS and its proposed causes are what actually pathologize the disease.

    @TT Playing barefoot in the grass, sounds like heaven!!!

    “No, Dr. Sarno says TMS is benign. In his initial books when dealing with his specialty, rehab med, dealing with backs, limbs and joints, he attributed the cause to O2 deprivation of a very few cells--harmless but excruciatingly painful.”

    TT, I have read Healing Back Pain as you suggested, Sarno specifically defines it as a disorder, second line of the introduction;

    “...It [Mind Over Back Pain] described a medical disorder [emphasis mine] known as the Tension Myositis Syndrome (TMS), which I have reason to believe is the major cause of common syndromes of pain involving the neck shoulders, back, buttocks and limbs.”

    He does not describe it as a benign disorder and rightly so because a disorder which causes pain, could hardly be classified as harmless.

    On another thread, Hambone, discussed how fight or flight increases O2 in the bloodstream and how that didn’t jive with the fight or flight aspect of looking at TMS.

    I do not look at the word pathologize as a “bad” word, it is a neutral word just like the word cult.

    Certainly Sarno used aspects of pathology to come up with TMS and its proposed causes, just the root of the word should inform one of that.

    “Hodini, may I ask you what is your goal here, do you have injuries that you want to "cure" or are you here out of intellectual curiosity regarding healing modalities due to your negative prior experiences regarding cult behavior?”

    Of course you may, in order; I do not have a “goal” here, I get the sense you are asking me what am I doing here.

    I do not have any present injuries I wish to cure, I do not feel as if I am suffering or have suffered in the past from TMS and I believe I have been clear and upfront about that.

    I can say, that I have gained some valuable knowledge about how I might attempt to deal with chronic pain should that become a problem for me and am appreciative of that. I feel that education before something occurs is of enormous value rather then trying to play catch-up afterwards.

    That I posses intellectual curiosity I would think to be self- evident. I also have an interest in a variety of healing modalities. I look at them in historical context, not in the context of if my experience is negative or positive (or at the least, I do my best to avoid doing so).

    Vis a vis cult behavior, I have gained some interesting and helpful insights through my dialogue on this site, a good example would be Alan pointing out Bandura’s theory of self-efficacy and how it might relate to those suffering from chronic pain. While I had been aware of the theory in sports psychology, I had not been aware of how effective it might be for those suffering with pain and or anxiety. I am an advocate for methods which work on a multi discipline level such as that.

    In the context of my cult experience and dealing with those whom are involved, having left, or, are contemplating involvement. I have come to realize through my interactions here that they are much like those suffering from chronic pain, especially those who tend to be looked at like it is “all in their heads”. That type of thinking is stereotyping, the same way someone might say about a cult member, “They must have been missing something in their life.” Half-truths at best, misrepresentations at worst.

    Other similarities would be the isolation faced both within and upon exiting a group to those isolated by their pain and non-acceptance by a portion of those in the medical community and society at large. I admire the variety of courageous ways in which those affected deal with their problems, trials and tribulations. Not to mention all of these things which are also so much in the news today such as the stigmatizing of an identity.

    That is why I have continued on here.

    At this point, I feel it necessary to inject a personal observation that I hope you will thoughtfully consider. It is not intended as a personal affront to you.

    In our phone conversation, you sound like a congenial sort of guy, we did not however get into an in depth discussion of Sarno and TMS. At your suggestion, I have read the book you suggested, as well as others, which have enlightened me further on his theory. I have also made contact with some of those he has worked with in order to have a better sense of the man.

    I have also read numerous posts you have made. My observation is that as far as Sarno and his theory you might be described as a radical. You are passionate in your belief, you may consider yourself a revolutionary and progressive which you may wear as a badge of honor and is included in being a radical, but I find that often you are coming off as an extremist, fanatical, diehard, revisionist with regard to Sarno and his works.

    I often find myself wondering, “Have we read the same book?”

    I will point directly to an example of this in my response to the rest of your post. I feel for me not to express this (and I am willing to be corrected), would be dishonest and therefore not lead to a productive continued conversation and would only ask that you give it some consideration.

    The following is taken directly from the first page on Dr. Sarno’s web site.

    Dr. Sarno does not authorize or otherwise endorse and has no affiliation with, any other website or practitioner that purports to offer medical or psychological guidance or advice.

    hodini said: I am attempting to try and get it in some sort of bag or container which can then be put on a shelf on the wall or nail the bag to the wall so to speak.Sarno said that the first thing with regard to TMS is information.

    “That is what modern medicine and pharma, practicing the cartesian method, also attempts to do, and misses the point and the core of most chronic pain--the subconscious need for it. They treat the symptoms with PT or a prescription--but miss the cause--the emotions. TMS is full of intangibles that can't be treated in 10 minutes in the white coat exam room or by swallowing a pill.”

    This is an example of what I spoke of above. You have lumped the modern medical community and pharma as one big misinformed stereotyped society, which it is not. By creating an us verses them type of situation; in this case, it is a large majority in which I would INCLUDE Sarno being a part of the” them”; and the “us” being you and I don’t know who.

    Denigrating the “Cartesian method” does not really contribute to a serious discussion. Besides venturing into the realm of philosophy, which can and will be debated as long as free ideas rule, it just is not a factual statement.

    Could I be considered as one who holds the philosophy of Rene’ Descartes in high regard? Yes. Besides being considered by most the father of modern philosophy (I mean over the last few centuries, I guess if you were only to include the last it would be Bertrand Russell) He was also a mathematical genius as well as an academic and scientist. His contributions in methodology to mathematics, science, and medicine have shaped our world into what it is today (I tend to look at the bright side of things).

    Undoubtedly, from writing computer code, physics, and the depth of scientific knowledge it allowed is why I am able to type on my computer now, just like you. To denigrate something that is an essential element of everyday life, is certainly a path out of reality and an aspect of a fanatic or extremist and that is a subject I have considerable experience with.

    I wish I could attribute the following quote to the right person, I’m pretty sure it was a comedian like Groucho or perhaps the great linguist George Carlin, but it went something like this;

    “I don’t like reality, but it’s the only place you can get a great steak!”

    Virtually from all of what I have read, Sarno indicates he ascribes to the Cartesian method. He was willing to entertain doubts about his own theory like the vast majority of scientists and professionals. Descartes was all about the advancement of truth as was Sarno. He allowed his theory to grow and be challenged. I.e.;

    “Science requires that all new ideas be validated by experience and replication.

    Before new concepts can be generally accepted, they must be proven beyond all doubt.

    It is essential that the ideas advanced in this book be subjected to research study.

    In the tradition of scientific medicine, I invite my colleagues to verify or correct my work. What they ought not to do is ignore it, for the problem of back pain is too great and the need for a solution imperative.”

    [Sarno, Healing Back Pain, introduction xxi]
  3. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Honestly, I appreciate all the thought you put into that, but all I do is regurgetate what I've read in the Good Doctor's books. I will not attempt to answer all your points, I'd rather be playing tennis, swimming, soaking in the hot-tub, eating or sleeping. I'm not a Sarno radical at all, just a Sarno groupie. I'd rather save my energy for those who are suffering, and send them in the right direction, then wear myself out doing semantic gymnastics--you win on that count. Name me any doctor, outside of TMS ones, who spend more then 10 minutes listening to their patients or place their focus on their emotional needs--modern medicine and pharma are all about treating symptoms and not emotional causes for chronic pain. TMS doctors are notable for spending hours and sometimes half a day getting to know their patients to evaluate whether they have a structural issue that needs treatment or TMS. I remember my parents taking me to see our family doctor who's office was in his home. He also came to our house to treat my brother and me for severe sun-burn and brought a bottle of salve for it--when was the last time that's happened. Back then doctor's had an inkling of the family structure that may be the source for dis-ease. The economics of medicine today do not allow for that, your car probably gets more emotional support from your mechanic then "moderne" medicine has time to allow for today's patient's emotional needs--you may get a pill to calm you down if you appear overly nervous or clinically depressed.

    Now that you've read HBP, read the Good Doctor's other two books to see how he evolved his TMS theory to cover many other symptoms besides backs, tendons and ligaments. There will never be a pill to cure TMS, the cure comes from within ones mindbody-bodymind through transformation to self-reliance, and taking personal responsibility for one's health and medical decisions. Feel free to call me to discuss TMS or tennis anytime, the written word is not adequate to convey the emotional depths of TMS thought. Dr. Sarno said we will likely never know the mechanisms that cause TMS--and that it doesn't matter, the mind is so complex it will create new symptoms and strategies in it's attempt to protect us from emotional pain that it has deemed more painful then the benign symptoms is creates for psychological defense mechanisms.
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  4. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Here's a good article Forest posted a while back that explains things better then I have the time to do right now--gotta' check out of the motel at Gold Beach, on the Oregon coast, trying not to get blinded by the eclipse and not have the Jeep's soft-top catch on fire going down the 101 through Brookings, OR., where there's a big fire that's doing a good job of blocking out the sun on it's own.

    Review: In ‘Cure,’ Accepting the Mind’s Role in a Body’s Health

    Books of The Times
    Author Jo Marchant. Photo Credit: Garry Simpson

    It’s been almost 40 years since Jeff Goldblum appeared in “Annie Hall” as an unnamed party guest who couldn’t remember his mantra. Mr. Goldblum has done very well since then; mantras, alas, have had a rougher go of it. But perhaps it’s time to ask: Must the mantra be forever impugned?

    This is one of the many questions that the English science writer Jo Marchant tackles in “Cure: A Journey Into the Science of Mind Over Body.” She’s grown weary of the old Cartesian dualism, which seats the mind at one end of the table and the body at the other, like a married couple with nothing to say to each other.

    “Stacked up on one side are the proponents of conventional, Western medicine,” she writes in her introduction. “According to their paradigm, the body is like a machine. For the most part, thoughts, beliefs, and emotions don’t feature into treatment for a medical condition.”

    And on the other side? “Everyone else,” she bluntly concludes. Among them: Past-life regression therapists, energy healers, homeopathic doctors — all the peddlers of loosey-goosey gooey-hooey who had Woody Allen running for the hills.


    Ms. Marchant’s aim in “Cure” is to expose the absurdity of this dichotomy. (Though it feels a little artificial as the book goes on: A number of academics who reject it work at Harvard, hardly a scientific backwater.) Ms. Marchant is careful to emphasize that she will not countenance silliness. She has a Ph.D. in genetics and medical microbiology. The scientific method is her friend.

    But Ms. Marchant, the author of“Decoding the Heavens”and“The Shadow King,”wants to acknowledge the alternative therapies that have withstood the scrutiny of Western peer review. More broadly, she wants to acknowledge the important and influential role of the mind in our overall health.

    What follows her introduction is a 12-chapter tour d’horizon, with the author crisscrossing the globe to make a detailed relief map of the latest mind-body research. Virtual reality therapy in Seattle! Hypnosis in Northern England! Placebo studies in Italy and Germany!

    It’s a familiar format, this jet-pack journalism, and much of Ms. Marchant’s material is familiar too, particularly in the second half of the book. (That stuff about the health benefits of friendship and social connections? You’ve read it. Those serene Buddhist monks who spent tens of thousands of hours in meditation? You’ve read about them too.)Anyone who’s ever picked up a book about neuroplasticity or positive psychology is well acquainted with the general contours of this terrain.

    Two things separate “Cure” from other books of this type.

    First, Ms. Marchant writes well, which is never a guarantee in this genre; you often must make a choice between authors who understand science but can’t write, and authors who can write but don’t understand science.

    Second, Ms. Marchant has chosen very moving characters to show us the importance of the research she discusses — we forget that those who turn to alternative medicine are often people in extremis — and she possesses an equal flair for finding inspirational figures. I will always like a book, at least a little, if it mentions a 102-year-old Costa Rican woman who can recite a six-minute Pablo Neruda poem from memory.

    My favorite chapters of “Cure” come mostly at the beginning, when Ms. Marchant discusses the placebo effect. It, too, is a topic some readers may consider old hat, but the studies are irresistible, and they come in an almost infinite variety.

    Did you know, for instance, that there are placebo trials involving fake surgery? Surgery! (Not with a general anesthetic. But still.) Or that large-pill placebos work better than small ones? (Which is funny if you think about it, considering they are equally inert.) Or that placebos sometimes workeven when we knowthey’re placebos? (There is, correspondingly, a niche market for placebos online.)

    And that’s just the kid stuff. There’s also evidence suggesting that placebos affect the immune system, not just the subjective experience of pain.

    “It isn’t trickery, wishful thinking or all in the mind,” Ms. Marchant writes, when explaining the biology of the placebo effect. “It is a physical mechanism, as concrete as the effects of any drug.” What we are swallowing with any pill is essentially an idea: That we will feel better. This belief alone is often enough to trigger the release of our body’s natural endorphins, or dopamine, or whatever other chemical our body was expecting to make or consume if we’d taken an actual drug.

    After placebos, Ms. Marchant looks at how researchers are trying to harness the powers of the mind to fight chronic fatigue, irritable bowel syndrome and intractable physical pain. The biological origins of each condition may differ. But what most of the treatments she examines have in common, whether they involve hypnosis or cognitive behavioral therapy or virtual reality, is that they divert our attention away from our ailments.

    This deceptively simple idea is one of the most powerful in the book: Sometimes the difference between feeling well and feeling awful is simply a matter of where we direct our attention.

    As the book progresses, however, Ms. Marchant starts outlining the ways we can rewire our brains and improve our well-being, and in doing so, she serves up the same old chestnuts — lightly roasted and seasoned for our delectation, perhaps, but chestnuts nonetheless. Again with the mindfulness? Still with thebiofeedback? Must we read, for the umpteenth time, about the salubrious effects of faith?

    I’m also a little tired of reading about the dangers of rinsing our brains in cortisol. Like most anxious New Yorkers, I’d give half my life savings for my amygdala to scale back its hours. But there comes a point when reading so many studies about the toxicity of stress starts to feel punitive, not informative.

    By the end of her book, though, Ms. Marchant has won me over again, with a chapter about the pilgrims of Lourdes. She speaks to a woman named Ann, a depressive with a terrible life story. Why does Ann love Lourdes? “Love is oozing out of the walls.”

    Ms. Marchant, a scientist to her bones, notices it too. “Random acts of kindness are the norm,” she writes. “In the baths, volunteers tie pilgrims’ shoelaces.”

    If there is one lesson to be drawn from “Cure,” it is this: For the ailing, there is no substitute for face time with someone who cares about your fate. Is Western medicine conducive to such radical intimacy? No. Doctors are forever rushed, harried, swamped. But considering that tenderness costs us nothing, it may be the easiest fix we’ve got.

    A Journey Into the Science of Mind Over Body
    By Jo Marchant
    300 pages. Crown Publishers.
    A version of this review appears in print on January 25, 2016, on page C1 of theNew York editionwith the headline: Repeating a Mantra, With Some Evidence.

    Currently $16 at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WPQ98X2/

    Forest, Jan 31, 2016ReportBookmark
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  5. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Here's a 5 STAR review of the book "CURE" by Jo Marchant on Amazon :

    5.0 out of 5 stars Excellent book

    ByAmazon Customer on July 25, 2016

    "This book is the data that backs up another book about the topic of mind and body connections written by Dr. John Sarno. Good compliments to each other for those looking to CURE physical problems with their mind rather than route of surgery, pills, acupuncture, massage, physical therapy and chiropracty. I cured my back pain using these methods employed in these books after trying all else (except pills and surgery). People I know have cured their fibromyalgia as well. It is very possible and real. It does take time, thought usually 3-6 months, but you will see improvements along the way which are encouraging. Our pain pops up as a sign, telling us we're going the wrong way. Its a warning signal. Once we understand why we are getting the warning signal, we can address the pain. If our body has the power to create the pain, making some small adjustments to our lifestyle and awareness gives our body the power to remove the pain as well. This is what I have learned from this process of healing my own back pain, which showed up 2 weeks after a minor car accident. Once I addressed some minor repressed anger about my career and confronted a family relationship, I was able to come out of it. Don't let the fact that the medical scans have told you you have, slipped disc, fused discs, fibromyalgia, arthritis, etc, etc..convince you you are unwell. These are just the manifestations of the warning signs. People only get back scans when there is pain, but all of our back share the same problems, pain or no pain. The pain is a gift to wake you up. You can either wake up and improve yourself, or resign yourself to the pain. - a note: Some people are too closed minded to receive benefits, so this won't help them. I know some people whom I gave the book to and won't read it, out of stubborness, and still suffer from the pain. If you are not open to it, it won't help."
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  6. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hey TT!,
    Groupie eh? LOL, I'll buy that, I have a very close friend, she is one of the original groupies so I know the deal.
    It make sense though because Sarno was certainly a Radical and Radicals often develop a Groupie following (neutral use of the word).

    I also remember the family doctor coming to our apartment in NYC. He was a nice man though I always would look with apprehension as to what he was going to pull out of the black bag of tricks of his. Those days are long gone, but on the bright side, we don't have to worry about polio any more or many other ailments of those times.

    I'll be out on the west coast next week and will give you a buzz when we are on the same time zone.
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  7. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    TT, Thanks!! I am so glad you brought this up! I had read an except from her book Decoding the Heavens years ago and lost the title and author and I had really wanted to read it, she sounded like a great storyteller with some fascinating subject matter. I will get that one first and digest the one you mentioned after!
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  8. plum

    plum Beloved Grand Eagle

    That's a very powerful account and I thank you for sharing it with us. I'm glad to hear your daughter is fine now
  9. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hodidni : "That is a fairly old example about the soldier, I would suggest that it was not necessarily being off the battlefield, or relief from being in the hospital bed which enabled the soldier to do with less morphine. I would say it is perhaps a fine example of the mind/body working its magic."

    They are one and the same.
  10. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    In "HEALING BACK PAIN" Dr. Sarno has four citations for Descartes on pages 132-133, 135 and 138.

    Page 132 :

    "One thing that is abundantly clear about the cause and treatment of TMS is that it is a striking example of what might be called the mind-body connection. The history of medicine's awareness of this interaction is long and checkered. Hippocrates advised his asthmatic patients to be wary of anger, which suggests that 2,500 years ago there was some appreciation of the impact of the emotions on illness. That concept was dealt a crippling blow by the seventeenth century philosopher and mathematician Rene' Descartes, who held that the mind and both were totally separate entities and should be studied separately. Matters of the mind were the concern of religion and philosophy, according to Descartes. The body, he said, should be studied by obective, verifiable methods. To a large extent Descarte's teaching remains the model for contemporary medical research and practice. The average physician looks upon illness as a disorder of the body machine and sees his role as discovering the nature of the defect and correcting it. Research in medicine rests heavily on the laboratory, and what cannot be studied in the laboratory, is widely considered to be unscientific. Despite the obvious fallacy of the idea, it remains the guiding research principle for the most medical investigations. The spirit of Descartes is still very much alive."
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  11. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    "HEALING BACK PAIN", From Dr. Sarno's 12 Daily Reminders, Page 82 :

    * TMS is a harmless condition, caused by my repressed emotions.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  12. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    Tt that one is confusing because yes it says what it says but then again we hear people who purport to be authoritative telling us that all sorts of very serious diseases are really a form of tms or a tms equivalent. I dont recall now where sarno himself first talked about tms equivalents. But that one soundbite may not be the only word on the subject of benign or not.
  13. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Hi TT,
    This mat be the problem when one simply "regurgitates" Sarnos writings in an uncritical way. When Sarno says, in speaking of scientific method specifically in medicine. " Before new concepts can be accepted, they must be proven beyond all doubt." he is ascribing to Descartes fundamental philosophy. If he later finds fault with it, via not putting it in the context within which it was written and developed. Then he is being hypocritical.

    This is the issue in discussing TMS I find and why it is like trying to nail jello to a wall. With alternating viewpoints coming from the originator of the theory, how could it be possible to define accurately what is trying to be said.

    Without going into a long diatribe, I not sure just how familiar you , or, Sarno are with Descartes, but his philosophy rests on the application of doubt and the ability to falsify. He applied it to himself which in the end forced him to see that he could not doubt his own existence, leading him to the famous statement ;

    "I think, therefore, I am"

    Can't get much more mind body integrated then that.

    Beyond that, This is far off track from the initial thread, I still do not know your view on the question I posed, how about simply filling in the blanks for me and others. "I think TMS is a _______________ disease, condition, disorder (take your pick) because_________________________________.
  14. hodini

    hodini Peer Supporter

    Again, just because some one says something is so, do
    Again, just because some one says something is so, does not make it so.

    You are quoting from suggested affirmations. Which are born from flawed logic.

    If repressed emotions are also a harmless disorder, then why should they produce pain?

    If repressed emotions in the sense of which Sarno speaks is a disorder which creates a harmless condition such as TMS , then why would it be considered a disorder?

    If repressed emotions + harmless condition TMS = pain, then if one removes the harmless condition one is left with repressed emotions = pain. in which case it might suggest another affirmation that might deserve a look at. how about becoming aware of ones pain and then meditating on the following statement and monitor ones pain afterward;

    "What if there would be no such disorder as TMS?, what would that mean for me?"
  15. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    If one views sarno,s writings as scripture then this is heresy, but my belief is that repressed emotions are just one of various phenomena that can result in an overloaded nervous system which can result in pain and or other somatic symptoms. I dont think some inner being is trying to distract or protect us. Agonizing long lasting pain is not protective imo. It is life destroying.
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  16. Lunarlass66

    Lunarlass66 Well known member

    I agree pspa... Life destroying. I think if one can pinpoint why TMS occurs, it's more of a overloaded nervous system or the sufferer's brain gets stuck in the "on position" in it's creation of pain signals.. Either from high stress events or even a real physical injury... Which is stressful and upsetting to someone who possesses the sensitive TMS prone personality. I personally can't see it as a defense mechanism either or due to events that happened 30 years ago.
    I think current stress is more of an instigator than the past... But I only say this from my own experience so far. I've always been extremely self aware and don't bury much in terms of emotions. I have found, even with the guidance of a counselor that it can drive a person stark raving mad constantly digging, digging, digging into the past... Looking for some key past event that will "heal" the body.
    I've been in chronic pain for 3 yrs now and still had the same history BEFORE the pain began.. I did, however, have unprecedented losses and HUGE stress in the past 3 yrs.. Running parallel to all my physical pain.
    Still clinging to hope, and trying to find a way to stop the pain. :(
  17. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    I'm not going to engage in semantic tautological argumentation--the answers are in all of Dr. Sarno's books. His theory is very simple to understand but may be difficult to absorb on a personal level. I've answered these questions hundreds of times and prefer to play tennis, swim or take a spirited drive. No offense but I don't get paid for this, call me if you like, keyboarding is too linear and impersonal a format to discuss TMS. Many here have reported that, after they viewed Dr. Sarno, speaking his lecture on his video, got better results then from just reading the books.

    Dr. Sarno, carefully screened his patients, like a surgeon would do to see if they would be candidates for a surgical procedure, (that's in his books too), so as not to waste there time and money nor his, on patients who he knew from years of clinical practice, needed their TMS symptoms for psychological defense mechanisms--PROTECTORS--as he termed them.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  18. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    I've been accused of this and being a radical, etc.,--I don't view the Good Doc's writings as "scripture"--I view it as SCIENCE--maybe someday the shamanism and voo-doo that passes for much of "moderne medicine" today, will discover TMS/psychosomatic dis-ease. Today's defensive medicine, is too busy trying not to get sued for malpractice, to be open minded to anything as creative, simple and cheap as TMS/psychosomatic medicine. When physicians started referring to chiros and accus for chronic pain, I knew modern medicine had taken a turn for the worse--it would have been unheard of a generation before to incorporate such quackery--if "moderne medicine" understood that about 80% of what their patients in the waiting room were there for was TMS/psychosomatic, they would be referring them to psychotherapists--most psychotherapist today don't get it either--they want to ally themselves with the white-coats hoping some of the money will rub-off on them.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
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  19. pspa

    pspa Well known member

    If memory serves mind over back pain does not discuss distraction or protection or repression at all. Agree with nearly all your prior post btw.
  20. Tennis Tom

    Tennis Tom Beloved Grand Eagle

    Hodini, a disorder is not necessarily fatal, a disorder could just be a dis-order, something out of the ususal order, an imbalance. You could say pimples are a disorder, it's treated with Clearasil. Disease, would be another level of imbalance which could also in many instances be attibuted to TMS, dis-ease--tension--the mindbody is in a state of un-ease, creating TMS distractions--emotional imbalances. For the cartesian "scientific proof" see the Holmes-Rahe list of stressful emotional life events, that have proven to cause psychosomatic structural or affective symptoms. We did read the same book, and I've read it several times--word for word--as well as all four of the Good Doctor's books where he evolved and added to the conditons that could be directly contributed to by TMS/psychosomatic dis-ease. I would recommend re-reading Dr. Sarno as all the answers to your doubts about his "science" are answered. You've said you've never had a TMS injury--but to me that is doubtful--you just didn't know it was caused by TMS. Dr. Sarno, who you would think would be the foremost expert on banishing TMS dis-ease had TMS attacks you could call them like heart-burn--TMS is part of the human condition--"dis-order" and "dis-ease" should be hyphenated and "mindbody" and "bodymind" should not be hyphenated to convey the proper semantics of the "thing". For a very benign and mundane example, except maybe to the sufferer, would be blushing, I'm sure you've blushed, if so you exhibited a benign instance of an autonomic bodily TMS phenomenon. Your sub-c creates a change of blood flow, to a part of your body, that was at that moment, not under your conscious control. Dr. Sarno would say to "think psychologically", when this happens and maybe next time you are in an embarrassing situation, your conscious mind will be in control of the situation and you won't blush out of embarrassment.

    So basically, what is the proof of Dr. Sarno's theory?--the thousands of patients he's cured and documented scientifically in his fifty years of clinical practice, the hundreds of testimonials in the "SUCCESS STORIES" at the two TMS sites and the hundreds of success story reviews at Amazon--there is your science--were they all wrong?--and if that doesn't convince you that Dr. Sarno's TMS is real and has helped thousands banish their chronic pain, then talk to Howard Stern about him, Howard even cites Dr. Sarno in his book as having cured him of his OCD and back pain.

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