Introduction/Tennis Elbow as TMS Manifestation?

[Jayver17]

Hey ya’ll
Just wanted to introduce myself and also try to get some insight on my current situation if I can...first time posting and sorry it’s so long, but I’m really going through it right now.


First a bit of background info – I’m in my mid forties and have been dealing with TMS off and on for a a few decades, definitely no stranger. Low back stuff/sciatica is the usual thing, but I’ve also had some knee and hamstring/hip stuff as well, so it can come at me multiple ways. I’m an athlete and I do a physical job, so I get banged up all the time and it’s hard to separate normal aches and pains, acute injuries that need addressed and TMS manifestations.

A common pattern with me is I develop some kind of actual acute physical issue and treat it with PT initially, but then at some point TMS brain takes over it and turns it into an ongoing, arduous thing long after the physical element is basically fine. I never know when this transition occurs and I don’t want to risk aggravating a real physical problem, so I always have to go through the motions of regress, get frustrated, find a new PT, have initial success, regress again, get frustrated, repeat. This will go on for months till I wise up and start thinking in a more TMS-related direction. But even then it’s a slow process to internalize it, I’m always stubborn to accept TMS. The good news with me is once I’m confident it’s TMS, symptoms tend to clear up right away, that’s all I need is the knowledge. The bad news is it takes me a long time to be convinced, and I usually need a real doctor to tell me - this often comes after spending months on wasted PT and expensive imaging. But traditionally I do really need that, I need to be reassured by somebody with proper medical authority that I’m not causing any damage by returning to training.

So anyway...I got the back stuff under control, I don’t think TMS can fool me with that again, it’s been great. Anybody here ever suffer tennis elbow as a manifestation of TMS though? I got a bad case of it right now and its just killing me. Based on what I’ve learned about it tennis elbow seems to have been designed in a lab to be uniquely torturous for TMS sufferers – almost like AIDS for someone who already has an autoimmune disorder. I first developed it a year and a half ago and I’ve had 4 major flare ups since then – this last one has been going on since december.

I saw a bad orthopedist for a while who gave me too many cortisone shots without bothering to tell me that too many cortisone shots are bad for tendons. Now the skin is all white and the fat pads have sunken, so I’m freaked out I’ve done too much irreparable cortisone-related damage to the tendon, so that didn’t help. Then I got a new orthopedist, who is marginally better for at least telling me not to do anymore cortisone, but he also told me the thing was pretty bad and might rupture one day and would likely need surgery eventually regardless. I’m very susceptible to suggestion and hate it when doctors say things like that – I once had a doctor tell me I’d for sure need back surgery and I got very depressed and had 3 more months of severe symptoms, then I saw another doctor who looked at my imaging and said “looks OK to me” and within 3 weeks I was symptom free. So that didn’t help either.

So anyway, I started PT for the elbow in January, and have simultaneously been rehabbing a shoulder sprain from last year that didn’t heal properly on the same arm – the hope being that fixing both means the whole arm will improve. The shoulder mostly has improved though it still has some work ahead; the elbow has been very up and down. My initial PT discharged me and cleared me for activity because I was symptom free for a couple weeks but as soon as I started lifting weights again I had a bad flare up, so I found a new PT. At first things with that PT went well, but she’s been pushing me lately to up the weights again and so I’m having another bad flare up and its as bad as it’s ever been – even tying my shoelaces aggravates it slightly and I just don’t know what to think about it anymore I’m beyond frustrated.

So that’s where I’m at. It’s miserable. I haven’t been able to work lately, I work with my hands and have to move heavy things so a weak and painful forearm tendon is a debilitating. So I’m running out of money and that’s stressful. Plus I have severe ADHD and absolutely need intense physical activity to regulate my brain chemistry, and when I’m hurt and can’t get it I start to spiral and ruminate, so that’s also bad. And I got pretty high anxiety right now because I was planning a big move but have had to delay it till I feel confident I can generate income again so in the mean time I’ve been stuck in limbo bumming around my mom’s house while I’m out of work and in arm rehab and am increasingly depressed about that situation. So I got a lot of stressors currently. Plus the world completely sucks right now generally and I don’t want to deal with it, so...I’m sure on some unconscious level I like having reasons to be cranky and stay home

There’s also that same pattern developing of start a treatment, then it fails, then try another one, it works at first but then fails and I get more and more frustrated, so that tracks with TMS. But then again I don’t know...the symptoms have been very consistent, and every time I try to push it a bit I get a flare up, always in the same place, it’s pretty acute. I did have an MRI on it last year, and was told it looked normal – severe inflammation but no damage, so nothing to worry about. But that was last year; it might be worse since then. I’m just scared to death of a tendon rupture - if that is in fact a real risk and not just a ghost story from a shitty doctor with bad bedside manner, but I absolutely CANNOT do that surgery on my good arm, I’ll be out of a job, maybe out of a career and unable to even wipe my own ass for months, I just can’t do it.

So...anybody have anything at all to offer? I know I can’t get a diagnosis from strangers on a forum, but what are the armchair opinions? Anyone have a similar experience they can relate? Or a suggestion of how to approach it and move forward? Anybody know of any specialists to reach out to? I would love to find another TMS doctor I can meet with if anyone can point to one or at least a list/directory so I can find one on my own. I had been living in NY and saw Dr. Rauschbaum who took over sarno’s old clinic, then after he retired I saw Dr. Gzwozds in New Jersey. I live in Pittsburgh now, I have no idea if there’s anyone around here that does TMS. I’ll drive a little if I gotta. Telehealth would be fine too if I could find someone who will do it, think they’d need to be in PA as well though. I’ll drive back to Jersey if I have to, but it’d be a 2 day trip so only if there’s no better option.

And if it DOES turn out to be TMS, then...I’m going to need some better strategies to deal with it moving forward, because apparently it’s just never going to relent.
Ok, thanks in advance to anybody who reads all this and replies.

 

[Cactusflower]

Sounds like the best thing you might do right now is start reading a book by Dr. Sarno - any book is a great start. It sounds like you've identified as being a person who may have TMS but it sounds like in the past you've been going down the frustrating rabbit holes of attempting to deal with it all via the medical system who simply don't have the tools to help you address the under laying causes. You also mention you need knowledge.
Sarno is the foundation of knowledge, with the exemption of his old oxygen theory (which he does mention in his books, but has since been regarded as not a part of TMS).
I also suggest that if you are desperate, find yourself in high drive, that you try actually reading one of his books vs. an audio book. You want this information to sink in and to be able to return to passages when you feel the need, as you learn more.

The fact that you are exploring and have an open mind to all possibilities is a really great step in dealing with the situation

 

[Jayver17]

Sounds like the best thing you might do right now is start reading a book by Dr. Sarno - any book is a great start. It sounds like you've identified as being a person who may have TMS but it sounds like in the past you've been going down the frustrating rabbit holes of attempting to deal with it all via the medical system who simply don't have the tools to help you address the under laying causes. You also mention you need knowledge.
Sarno is the foundation of knowledge, with the exemption of his old oxygen theory (which he does mention in his books, but has since been regarded as not a part of TMS).
I also suggest that if you are desperate, find yourself in high drive, that you try actually reading one of his books vs. an audio book. You want this information to sink in and to be able to return to passages when you feel the need, as you learn more.

The fact that you are exploring and have an open mind to all possibilities is a really great step in dealing with the situation

Well...thanks. But I've already read several of Sarno's books, multple times, I don't think another round of Healing Back Pain is the solve I'm looking for.
Reading his books only worked once, the first time, every time I've had an injury that turned into TMS since then I've needed more convincing. Especially when the symptoms change; Healing Back Pain specifically discusses back pain, so when I was having back problems that book helped. But when TMS manifests as something new, such as a torn hamstring or knee tendinopathy or in this case possibly tennis elbow, then i've needed to go further to get it under control. So I'm hoping for something a bit more involved than "read Sarno again".

 

[Cactusflower]

From your post above, it is hard to fully understand that you "get" Sarno's theory. Does he not speak to you? Personality traits, psychology, fear, and the work you need to do within the realm of these things?
The reason I ask is because your post above, and mentioning the rundown of your constant physical symptoms and chasing physical means to their "fix" doesn't lead to an understanding of Dr. Sarno's work. Reading The Divided Mind will give you a broader understanding of the clientele he worked with - it was not just back pain.
You need to look beyond the obvious. Beyond considering an author like Sarno will only be the solution to one form of pain.
Understanding that the symptoms are purely a manifestation of your internal suffering and what that does within your physiology - the mind/body connection is the lesson. It can take a LOT of readings of Sarno to get this through our thick TMS brains - after all, your brain is protecting you from the things Sarno asks you to begin looking at within yourself. Do you feel you want to avoid any of the inner work he asks you to do? Did you ever attempt any of it on your own?
None of these are questions of criticism, I'm simply wondering where you are at, what you've tried.
If you'd like a guide to the work that Sarno asks you to do, you can look into the free Structured Educational Program free on this forum. Just do it slowly a little day by day and see how it goes. https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...-resources-during-the-home-page-outage.33394/

I, nor probably anyone else can really convince you that these symptoms are all TMS. Practice over time at noticing how the symptoms and your emotions, thoughts, mindset and personality traits can create internal stressors (plus of course any history or even trauma in life) effect your physical body will be what convinces you. People seem to just get better at sussing out what's what when something comes up and what might be going on. The Structure Educational Program will take you though the work and some practices that teach you how to offload some of that stress and how to begin dealing with the hard emotions and everything else that comes into play.

Symptoms being consistent can be TMS (mine were), tendonitis and RSI are usually stress related per Sarno's books. It's up to you to decide if you want to see someone "who does TMS". I'm assuming you mean a medical Dr. who has a belief and practice surrounding TMS symptoms - there are many that do telehealth. Here's a directory if it will help you: https://www.symptomatic.me/practitioner-directory

I sense that you might be feeling a bit of a victim of your circumstance. I believe you can get this done without the help of a professional. I think you already ARE the pro, you've been through this before. You don't need 100% belief to begin the program, just a willingness to be open and learn about yourself. You see the habits of struggle after the symptoms start, the program helps you now, and also to learn how to see the habits and cycles we get into before the symptoms start.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Perfect (second) response from @Cactusflower. I have to admit I didn't know where to start.

 

[Jayver17]

From your post above, it is hard to fully understand that you "get" Sarno's theory. Does he not speak to you? Personality traits, psychology, fear, and the work you need to do within the realm of these things?
The reason I ask is because your post above, and mentioning the rundown of your constant physical symptoms and chasing physical means to their "fix" doesn't lead to an understanding of Dr. Sarno's work. Reading The Divided Mind will give you a broader understanding of the clientele he worked with - it was not just back pain.
You need to look beyond the obvious. Beyond considering an author like Sarno will only be the solution to one form of pain.
Understanding that the symptoms are purely a manifestation of your internal suffering and what that does within your physiology - the mind/body connection is the lesson. It can take a LOT of readings of Sarno to get this through our thick TMS brains - after all, your brain is protecting you from the things Sarno asks you to begin looking at within yourself. Do you feel you want to avoid any of the inner work he asks you to do? Did you ever attempt any of it on your own?
None of these are questions of criticism, I'm simply wondering where you are at, what you've tried.
If you'd like a guide to the work that Sarno asks you to do, you can look into the free Structured Educational Program free on this forum. Just do it slowly a little day by day and see how it goes. https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threa...-resources-during-the-home-page-outage.33394/

I, nor probably anyone else can really convince you that these symptoms are all TMS. Practice over time at noticing how the symptoms and your emotions, thoughts, mindset and personality traits can create internal stressors (plus of course any history or even trauma in life) effect your physical body will be what convinces you. People seem to just get better at sussing out what's what when something comes up and what might be going on. The Structure Educational Program will take you though the work and some practices that teach you how to offload some of that stress and how to begin dealing with the hard emotions and everything else that comes into play.

Symptoms being consistent can be TMS (mine were), tendonitis and RSI are usually stress related per Sarno's books. It's up to you to decide if you want to see someone "who does TMS". I'm assuming you mean a medical Dr. who has a belief and practice surrounding TMS symptoms - there are many that do telehealth. Here's a directory if it will help you: https://www.symptomatic.me/practitioner-directory

I sense that you might be feeling a bit of a victim of your circumstance. I believe you can get this done without the help of a professional. I think you already ARE the pro, you've been through this before. You don't need 100% belief to begin the program, just a willingness to be open and learn about yourself. You see the habits of struggle after the symptoms start, the program helps you now, and also to learn how to see the habits and cycles we get into before the symptoms start.

Yeah I mean, I read the Divided Mind, and I read Healing Back Pain, both of them, numerous times. I definitely related to the personality traits described, hence why I've been so receptive to the findings contained therein - first time I read Healing Back Pain it was like a miracle, my back pain disappeared almost overnight...but just reading the book only worked once, every time after that I've had additional work to do.
I think I might have done that Alan Gordon course you linked to, I'm not sure but he definitely looks familiar. If not that one I did one similar. And I tried journaling for a while as well, and meditation, and self talk...I don't know what to tell you, that stuff just didn't really work super well for me. I got other neurological stuff going on so journaling, talk therapy, meditation...I think it's all great stuff in theory but it's genuinely hard for me personally to really get anywhere with it. But whatevs the course is free, I'll give it another shot, won't hurt. But I'm definitely still going to pursue other options in the meantime

I'm just the kind of person who really, strongly benefits from a trusted authority in these matters telling me what's what, I'm not good at sussing this stuff out on my own. Also I'm an inherently skeptical person by nature, I'm kind of like a science nerd and I accept the whole TMS paradigm much better when it comes from such a source. That's the whole reason I was able to buy into Sarno's book initially in the first place - he's a real doctor with valid medical training who spent his whole career observing patients, compiling data and synthesizing a theory based on it. If he was some crackpot hippy hocking energy crystals or whatever I would have tossed the book at page one. Empirical evidence goes a long way with me.

But again, it's always tricky for me when the symptoms are NEW, that's the hang up. When it's back pain or hip pain or knee pain or whatever, that doesn't really work anymore, I've been there done that, I'm wise to that game. But I have not experienced TMS in the form of tennis elbow yet and therefore I just can't be sure...so yeah, I do kind of need someone to convince me, that's why I liked having access to Rauschbaum before he retired and Gwzozds when I lived in NY. Doesn't necessarily NEED to be a TMS doctor, though that does help as they both understand the condition AND can rule out anything else. But a muggle doctor can help with this as well if they have a good look at my condition and can then convince me I'm at least not going to damage the thing by returning to physical activity, those are the minimum magic works I need to hear and then I can start connecting the rest of the dots on my own.

And besides the new symptoms thing being an issue, there's also this hybrid physical injury + TMS thing I often go through. I don't know how common that is or what the science says about it, but it's happened like 4 times now, where I'll be doing something physically intense, feel a pop, something will definitely go, there will be inflammation, maybe swelling, like a full pain response. I'll do the initial thing of see the doctors, get on meds, get the initial symptoms under control - ice, compression, etc, then I'll start PT. Once in PT I usually make big strides at first, but then often start this dance of having it plateau, maybe regress a little, then improve again with a new treatment plan, then regress again, and on and on until I get super frustrated and before I know it I'm in the full blown TMS cycle. And that's how TMS still manages to trick me - it takes a REAL injury and hijacks it, and I'm so freaked about causing real structural damage to actually injured tissue that it just takes forever to get myself from the point of initial acute onset to "this injury probably healed months ago and has actually been TMS for a while now" and truly believing it. So to your point, it ain't that I'm hyperfocused on a physical treatment plan only, but most of my TMS bouts do tend to start that way so I typically find myself already in the care of some form of physical medicine practitioner when I start finally wising up and thinking along TMS lines. Once I do it's possible I CAN get out of the cycle on my own, but it greatly expedites things if I can at least rule out further physical damage or better yet maybe even get some guidance from somebody who knows what's up.

It honestly might even help a lot if I anyone who's experienced a similar thing could tell me about it, or at least point me toward a source where someone else describes it. As far as I can recollect, I don't think I've heard or seen tennis elbow specifically discussed anywhere as a manifestation of TMS, it's never mentioned in any of the lists I've read of the various maladies associated with it. Doesn't mean it's not of course, but I haven't come across any accounts so I reckon maybe it's not currently registering in my unconscious mind as such but if I DID get some info there, that might prime my brain to more readily accept the idea. Hell, I didn't even see anything in this link you provided: https://www.symptomatic.me/commonconditions
There's some stuff listed in there that's kind of close, but not that specifically. So any kind of literature would help really, if there is any, either medical or anecdotal, regarding tennis elbow vis a vis a TMS manifestation.

It would be amazing to not have to go through this every single time I accrue some new injury - this kind of seems to be the norm in recent years and if I could get better at sussing this all out earlier and nipping the TMS thing in the bud, that's a lofty and worthwhile goal to slowly and methodically work towards and I'm open to any resources that might help me to better train that ability. But in the meantime right now I just need to get this current bout in the rearview, whatever it takes so I can get back to normal life for a bit.
Assuming it is in fact TMS of course, which I'm still not 100% sure.

 

[Cactusflower]

If you really want to focus on softening your reactivity and learn to respond to these situations you have a few options.
Meditation really teaches these skills over time. It might be very useful for you overall if you find yourself falling into reactivity, hyperfocus, worry, ruminations etc. not only at times like this but in general.
Another approach is Alan Gordon's approach, he really works on the fear angle. There are a few youtube videos of Alan leading people through some pretty simple and gentle practices that really work over time. I think you could easily do these within a "real" injury or just TMS. It's all about the feelings of safety (and your nervous system reaction). Helpful in any scenario.

Sussing things out and nipping them in the bud is not a lofty goal. You might not be perfect at it, but I certainly think you can learn to change your reaction habits.

 

[Adam Coloretti (coach)]

I found a few in the success stories part of this forum - if you look up "tennis elbow" in the search bar. There are a few recent ones if you press "on this forum only" after you search

 

[jipavl]

Eccentric strengthening is very effective for tennis elbow. Clinical trials tracking patients over 4 to 12 weeks generally report success rates between 70% and 90% for significant symptom improvement. I obviously can't say for sure, and don't know what the exact cause of your issues is, but I would definitely look into these eccentric exercises.

 

[Rusty Red]

I had a low grade tear in my common extensor of my right arm on MRI, which presented like tennis elbow. Did all kinds of things for it, a tennis elbow rehab program, even sprung for this $500 device that was supposed to help. When I finally left it alone and just got back to doing my normal things, pain gone.

Now I have plenty of other things still plaguing me, but the tennis elbow isn't one of them.

 

[Jayver17]

I had a low grade tear in my common extensor of my right arm on MRI, which presented like tennis elbow. Did all kinds of things for it, a tennis elbow rehab program, even sprung for this $500 device that was supposed to help. When I finally left it alone and just got back to doing my normal things, pain gone.

Now I have plenty of other things still plaguing me, but the tennis elbow isn't one of them.

Thanks for the reply, that's good to know...any chance you'd be willing to expand on your experience a bit? Like, was it an acute tear or did pain develop gradually over time? How long did you deal with it? Did you get better and have relapses, or was it steadily bad for a while then suddenly not? When and how did you come to conclusion that it was fine? Did you ever have any follow up imaging to confirm the tear had healed, or did you just stop caring?

I'm kind of debating whether or not to get another MRI done in my own case, to see if there's a tear or signs of degeneration or anything. I know this may not help, and lots of things are pointing to TMS, but I'm still struggling to it. Did you ever have any physical signs of anything wrong? Like with me this elbow joint looks different from the other one...I can't quite tell if it's slightly swollen, or if the skin is just a bit weird looking from all the cortisone injections. I don' t know if neuroplastic stuff can actually alter the physical appearance of a body part, but I think that's a big part of what has me tripped up right now. It's also very sensitive to touch.

Wish I could follow in your footsteps and return to doing normal things, it's just too reactive and too consistent right now and has been for weeks - putting shoes and socks on in the morning causes minor pain, so doing anything more demanding is definitely still out for the moment.
Anyway, just curious what your experience was, if you don't mind sharing.

 

[Rusty Red]

@Jayver17, it started like ulnar nerve pain in my upper arm, actually, and kind of shifted into my forearm. Wasn't getting better and it was before I learned about TMS so I had the MRI and they found the tear. It was only low grade and just freaked me out more when I learned later that it didn't mean much. Once I learned about TMS, I stopped worrying about it and never did any follow up. I never had anything visual to suggest an issue, just the nerve pain that kept moving down my arm. I still have nerve pain but it moves around, which was one of my best indicators of TMS.

 

[Jayver17]

@Jayver17, it started like ulnar nerve pain in my upper arm, actually, and kind of shifted into my forearm. Wasn't getting better and it was before I learned about TMS so I had the MRI and they found the tear. It was only low grade and just freaked me out more when I learned later that it didn't mean much. Once I learned about TMS, I stopped worrying about it and never did any follow up. I never had anything visual to suggest an issue, just the nerve pain that kept moving down my arm. I still have nerve pain but it moves around, which was one of my best indicators of TMS.

Damn, Ok yeah, I never had nerve pain, it's very localized to that tendon, and according to doctors very consistent with pure tennis elbow. That's what has me so freaked out and I guess unable to accept TMS, when I had previous incidents with my back, hips and knee I had nerve pain, I had migrating symptoms, mystery symptoms... all the TMS calling cards, and I don't have nearly as much of that this time - mostly an MRI that says it's basically fine but just shows a lot inflammation, but that was last year it could have worsened since then. When it's flared it's super consistent with what aggravates it, and now there's this swelling...I don't know what to think about it anymore.