gym training - can it derail "psychological" thinking?

[garata]

First time poster, long time listener...
I'm 52 years old and I am so very nearly convinced that I have TMS. Since November 2024, I've suffered from low back pain--a diffuse, achy throb that doctors say is caused by arthritis in the Lumbar facet joints. I've been working with Dan Rattner's groups (excellent) and seeing a PRT therapist for months now. I have been getting better the last month now that my Dep and Anx have lifted (Wellbutrin for the win). Now that I'm able to face the world, I've been able to sit with the pain, working on somatic tracking and thinking Psychologically vs. Physically. It's helped! I have a ways to go as the pain is persistently there (on best days it's 2/10)

However...

I have been given an opportunity to train with a group of well respected body-work folks, twice a week, for a deeply discounted rate. I did some training with them in January, early in my pain journey, thinking it would be one of the ways to get rid of this pain. It did not. But it did help me feel stronger in my body and the way I functionally move in the world, engaging my muscles in a new way. They say that they've helped so many people with chronic pain that it's tempting to add this to my life.

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on if I should take this offer? I am mixed bc I want to keep thinking Psychologically, but I don't want my brain to get the mixed signal of my body being in NEED of something physical. Has anyone f0und a way to convince your brain that you are working out in the gym bc it "feels good" and adds to power, rather than to "fix" something?

**Lastly--has anyone else had dx of arthritis of the lumbar facet joints in low back?? I want to connect with someone who feels the same thing and has recovered. It will help convince me I have TMS.

Thank you!
Greg

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Hi there @garata[oops, it's Greg, not xGaryx] and welcome to the community. It sounds like you're doing really well, especially if you're dealing with depression along with serious anxiety, so keep up the good work there.

I'm 1000% in favor of building strength, flexibility and endurance at any and all stages of TMS recovery. The advantage of working with a professional trainer is that their goal is to push their clients to challenge their self-perceived limits, no matter where those perceptions come from. My personal trainer of ten years really helped me to trust that I could distinguish between the kind of pain I could push through with a mind-over-body attitude, vs knowing when to ask her to help me adjust if something felt wrong. I was almost 60 when I started with her, and I still can't believe some of the things she "made" me do for the first time in my life.

So much of TMS recovery is about taking on new challenges and risks without fear. If that's the goal of this bodywork program, there's no reason not to go for it. If, however it's a program designed to help you "manage" your back issues and learn to live with them and cope with the pain, my advice is to turn right around and run in the opposite direction.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

In addition to Jan's excellent advice above, the typical wisdom for TMS recovery in this area is to feel free to do as much physical therapy, strengthwork, "training" as you want - so long as your intent is NOT to eliminate the pain through those activities. This is a harder tightrope to walk than you might think, so be careful in this area.

As for myself, I love physical training, I love lifting and getting stronger - I like other stuff like stretching and mobility work a lot less - but in either event I continually remind myself that it's for self improvement and not pain prevention or removal. That's the realm of my TMS work.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

**Lastly--has anyone else had dx of arthritis of the lumbar facet joints in low back?? I want to connect with someone who feels the same thing and has recovered. It will help convince me I have TMS.

P.S. This is perfectly natural to want to read a scenario exactly like your own - but after enough experience with this stuff, you'll realize that the pain sites don't matter. Those of us that have been around awhile here on the forum just let our eyes glaze over when someone describes their physical symptoms and as Jan says, we see it as "Blah blah blah". It's like Cypher says in The Matrix: "I don't even see the code anymore, I just see blonde, brunette, redhead..."

 

[garata]

Hi there @garata/Gary and welcome to the community. It sounds like you're doing really well, especially if you're dealing with depression along with serious anxiety, so keep up the good work there.

I'm 1000% in favor of building strength, flexibility and endurance at any and all stages of TMS recovery. The advantage of working with a professional trainer is that their goal is to push their clients to challenge their self-perceived limits, no matter where those perceptions come from. My personal trainer of ten years really helped me to trust that I could distinguish between the kind of pain I could push through with a mind-over-body attitude, vs knowing when to ask her to help me adjust if something felt wrong. I was almost 60 when I started with her, and I still can't believe some of the things she "made" me do for the first time in my life.

So much of TMS recovery is about taking on new challenges and risks without fear. If that's the goal of this bodywork program, there's no reason not to go for it. If, however it's a program designed to help you "manage" your back issues and learn to live with them and cope with the pain, my advice is to turn right around and run in the opposite direction.

--------
Thanks Jan! In fact my personal trainer is actually Physical Therapy, but I stopped looking at it to FIX the problem. Now I look at him as a trainer. So I'm already doing some mental gymnastics by going there to have fun and build strength. It's not my first choice to the gym, or having a trainer, but I know it's good for my long term health. But in all honesty, I did start it out of desperation to fix the back. I'd much rather be going back to tennis 3x week but I'm afraid to do that. The fear that I'll make my back worse. I am back to tennis 1x/wk and then supplementing with gym/trainer stuff.

If I'm being honest w/ myself, this new gym based training I'm considering (called Functional Patterns) has all the trappings of "fixing" a chronic pain problem. Here's their description:

"Address Chronic Pain: Your path to lasting relief. Tired of the joint stiffness bouncing from one program to the next? End the vicious cycle with the FTS. It will recondition your body to promote joint strength, functional flexibility, cardio function and stress resilience, all while maintaining joint integrity in the process."

But I'm still waffling. Thoughts?

 

[garata]

P.S. This is perfectly natural to want to read a scenario exactly like your own - but after enough experience with this stuff, you'll realize that the pain sites don't matter. Those of us that have been around awhile here on the forum just let our eyes glaze over when someone describes their physical symptoms and as Jan says, we see it as "Blah blah blah". It's like Cypher says in The Matrix: "I don't even see the code anymore, I just see blonde, brunette, redhead..."

--
Thanks! I've heard this before but my analytical brain (ie, filled with doubt) needs a 1 to 1 comparison for me to let go of the doubt and fully believe it's TMS. Im 99% there. Still waffling about doing the training program as it does feel like a FIX to chronic pain-- this is their ad pitch:
"Address Chronic Pain: Your path to lasting relief. Tired of the joint stiffness bouncing from one program to the next? End the vicious cycle with the FTS. It will recondition your body to promote joint strength, functional flexibility, cardio function and stress resilience, all while maintaining joint integrity in the process."

 

[garata]

The program is called Functional Patterns, by the way. And it seems to really work for people but also maybe a bit culty.

 

[Mr Hip Guy]

I get it, we all like to know our special case is covered. When in doubt, go back to Sarno. I usually check the index of my Sarno books to see if there is mention of the specific area or pain symptom I'm experiencing. If you do that, you'll find lots of stuff on "arthritis" and lots and lots (and LOTS) of back pain references. Afterall, that was the name of his first book!

 

[JanAtheCPA]

Thanks! I've heard this before but

I call this "Yes, But..." Syndrome, and it's just TMS brain bulls***. This is your TMS brain mechanism, which has got you under its thumb, exactly where it wants you.

my analytical brain (ie, filled with doubt) needs a 1 to 1 comparison for me to let go of the doubt and fully believe it's TMS.

More TMS BS. The 100% "rule" has been debunked. No legitimate TMS practitioner or adviser believes it anymore. Belief comes from doing the work. Period. Waiting for 100% is a very effective delaying tactic, created by your TMS brain mechanism whose entire lifetime job is to keep you in fear and doubt.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

I'm a retired CPA and have no qualifications for judging any program based on someone's perception of what it might be, sorry!

 

[garata]

I get it, we all like to know our special case is covered. When in doubt, go back to Sarno. I usually check the index of my Sarno books to see if there is mention of the specific area or pain symptom I'm experiencing. If you do that, you'll find lots of stuff on "arthritis" and lots and lots (and LOTS) of back pain references. Afterall, that was the name of his first book!

wow, that is helpful thanks

 

[garata]

I call this "Yes, But..." Syndrome, and it's just TMS brain bulls***. This is your TMS brain mechanism, which has got you under its thumb, exactly where it wants you.


More TMS BS. The 100% "rule" has been debunked. No legitimate TMS practitioner or adviser believes it anymore. Belief comes from doing the work. Period. Waiting for 100% is a very effective delaying tactic, created by your TMS brain mechanism whose entire lifetime job is to keep you in fear and doubt.

hard truths apparently I need to keep hearing. Thank you.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

hard truths apparently I need to keep hearing.

And now don't let your TMS brain beat yourself up about it! It's a phase that everyone has to go through, considering that you're asking your psyche to suddenly go against a lifetime habit of fear and anxiety.

Are you engaging any structured resources or programs? If not, that is probably the next step.

 

[Diana-M]

Greg, (@garata )

I’m doing a really cool workout program from home—just to get stronger. And I feel stronger! I feel better. It’s awesome. Highly recommend it for anyone.

Sarno said arthritis shouldn’t cause pain. It’s just a normal abnormality. People start getting it as early as 30 years old. It’s one of those things the medical world uses to explain pain— because for some crazy reason they refuse to acknowledge that our minds could be part of the total picture of our well-being

You have TMS, plain and simple. Do everything in your power to ignore what the doctors have said and move on with the emotional work of healing.

Congrats for graduating from lurking to joining us! We don’t bite.

 

[garata]

And now don't let your TMS brain beat yourself up about it! It's a phase that everyone has to go through, considering that you're asking your psyche to suddenly go against a lifetime habit of fear and anxiety.

Are you engaging any structured resources or programs? If not, that is probably the next step.

I choked up when I read this out loud to my wife

And now don't let your TMS brain beat yourself up about it! It's a phase that everyone has to go through, considering that you're asking your psyche to suddenly go against a lifetime habit of fear and anxiety.

Are you engaging any structured resources or programs? If not, that is probably the next step.

I got choked up when I read this to my wife--thank you Jan. I didn't realize I have had a lifetime of worry until I started this journey. Its just been there in the background as vigilance.

I do have a program--I'm working with Dan Ratner in a weekly group, doing his columns work, and it's been great. Im also working with a Pain Reprocessing Therapist here in Los Angeles. Both have been very helpul. I also did Shubiner's workbook, which got me journaling, which I'm having a hard time keeping up to be honest. The Somatic Tracking though has been very helpful.

 

[garata]

Greg, (@garata )

I’m doing a really cool workout program from home—just to get stronger. And I feel stronger! I feel better. It’s awesome. Highly recommend it for anyone.

Sarno said arthritis shouldn’t cause pain. It’s just a normal abnormality. People start getting it as early as 30 years old. It’s one of those things the medical world uses to explain pain— because for some crazy reason they refuse to acknowledge that our minds could be part of the total picture of our well-being

You have TMS, plain and simple. Do everything in your power to ignore what the doctors have said and move on with the emotional work of healing.

Congrats for graduating from lurking to joining us! We don’t bite.

Thank you Diana, I've been reading for a while now and know many names, yours included. I really appreciate the warm welcome. Thanks for the arthritis info. I'm so obsessed with the arthritis being at least a PART of the issue here (I really do believe that's my main doubt).

 

[JanAtheCPA]

This all sounds good, Gary![oops, sorry, it's Greg!] My favorite TMS guru is Nicole Sachs, who reminds us regularly on her podcast of her three essential guidelines:
Believe
Do the work
Practice kindness and patience for yourself

Journaling is a powerful tool, but you don't need to let it run your life. I employ it now on an as-needed basis. Our SEP teaches different writing techniques, and there's also tutorial somewhere on the main TMSWiki.org site.

And, in spite of what I said previously, I think I would suggest staying away from a rigid program with unknown and possibly coercive expectations! That's definitely not in line with the TMS way!

 

[garata]

And yet Dr. Schechter still believes I have TMS, and am not a "mixed picture." See? I struggle to fully believe even him.

 

[garata]

This all sounds good, Gary! My favorite TMS guru is Nicole Sachs, who reminds us regularly on her podcast of her three essential guidelines:
Believe
Do the work
Practice kindness and patience for yourself

Journaling is a powerful tool, but you don't need to let it run your life. I employ it now on an as-needed basis. Our SEP teaches different writing techniques, and there's also tutorial somewhere on the main TMSWiki.org site.

And, in spite of what I said previously, I think I would suggest staying away from a rigid program with unknown and possibly coercive expectations! That's definitely not in line with the TMS way!

Right. on. I appreciate the time and wisdom you're sharing.
PS: It's Greg, not Gary
PSS: How do I highlight just the part of the text I want to reply to? I see you all doing that.

 

[Diana-M]

Thank you Diana, I've been reading for a while now and know many names, yours included. I really appreciate the warm welcome. Thanks for the arthritis info. I'm so obsessed with the arthritis being at least a PART of the issue here (I really do believe that's my main doubt).

Greg,
Maybe this will help. This is from The MindBody Prescription, by John Sarno (great book to read and have!)

DEGENERATIVE OSTEOARTHRITIS Of the structural group, changes in the spine associated with aging are the most common. They are referred to as arthrosis or degenerative osteoarthritis of the spine. They begin as early as the second decade of life and are usually more advanced in those parts of the spine that see the most activity—the last two lumbar vertebrae and the middle of the neck. This group includes osteophyte (spur) formation anywhere in the spine, technically known as spondylosis. Aging changes in the joints of the spine, identified as the facet syndrome, are now thought to be without symptoms, although they were treated as a clinical entity for years.

In 1976, doctors at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem reported finding no difference in the incidence of low back pain in people with and without osteoarthritis of the spine.

A group of physicians from the University of Copenhagen compared the X rays of 238 patients with low back pain with those of 66 patients with no history of such pain. They reported no difference in the X rays of the two groups with respect to degeneration of the discs and the presence of spondylosis (bone spurs). They observed that the incidence of these changes increased with age, as might be expected, since they are normal abnormalities.

—-

Re: your doubts. Check out what I wrote in this recent post on this topic: https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/how-do-you-let-go-of-diagnoses.30014/ (How do you let go of diagnoses?)

To block a quote you want to highlight in an answer— highlight it and a little tab should appear below it that says “reply.” Hit that, and it will cut and paste itself with coding into an open window.