Deeper questions on TMS and its treatment

[justsuffering]

Hi,
Over the last few years, I’ve had various forms and iterations of back, neck, and shoulder pain (though I was never injured). I’ve recently started to see if Dr. Sarno’s approach can work for me, and I have a few questions that I hope I can be educated on.

1) I have lots of negative emotions, as well as anger at life in general, and how my own life turned out in particular. At first glance it would be a no brainer to say that my subconscious is distracting me from all of that by depriving oxygen to those body parts as Dr. Sarno explains. However, not only am I not distracted and never was, I actually marinate and stew in my negative thoughts, constantly think about all of my (mental, emotional, and other) problems, and regularly rage at the unfairness and injustice of my existence. In essence, I have no (or almost no) repressed emotions, because none of them are repressed. Maybe everyone around me would think so because I don’t express my emotions to them, but in my own head, the emotions are routinely jumping and bouncing around, and I often express them to myself verbally (when no one else hears). So is this all an argument against the notion that my (relatively) recent pains are a result of TMS?

2) Over the course of my physical pains, there were lifestyle changes that did bring significant measures of relief (like changing the computer screen so I’m looking straight ahead instead of downward, etc.). Assuming I had TMS, how would that be possible, if the source of the pain isn’t physical?

3) In theory, it’s very easy to tell myself “I won’t let the pain control what I do, and I won’t give in to it”. But when I go to sleep, my head/neck starts hurting regardless of what pillow I use or its height (and I never had this problem in my whole life till recently), unless I tilt my head to the side, which causes my shoulder to hurt the next morning, but I least I can fall asleep that way. So I can stubbornly keep my head straight and stop it from tilting at all, but then I will literally stay up all night and not fall asleep. So that isn’t something I can actually do. So how real is this “I won’t let the pain control me” thing really?

4) After how long should one come to the conclusion that Dr. Sarno’s self talk treatment won’t help them if they’re trying it and nothing’s happening?

Thank you very much.

 

[Cactusflower]

Hi @justsuffering
Welcome!
To answer your questions: being aware of your anger and actually allowing it to be felt and discharged naturally is a TMS component for many - notice the subtle similarities between that and repressing emotions. Both are physically unfelt, both are held on to. It’s great to try and accept this anger and feel it, but some need to get rid of it more heartily perhaps by being physically active; running, lifting weights, using a punching bag… Dr. Hanscom is a TMS Dr. Who’s written quite a lot about this holding of anger, and the mindset challenges it presents in life.
Temporary relief through physical intervention is not uncommon with TMS. It is usually short lived..then your brain finds something to be protecting your from, again. Placebo effect is a term you see sometimes in the mind/body world.
The goal with TMS work is to basically learn not to give two craps about the pain. Sleeping crooked is most likely not gonna kill you. Your brain thinks it will, simply because you are on high alert right now. Slowly, over time we retrain ourselves/brains to realize that it might think there’s a fire to put out, but that there really isn’t one. Thoughts are just thoughts. They are not facts.
Lastly there is no timeframe to this process. It’s taken some of us weeks, some of us years. If you are considering that this “might not work” you simply still don’t see the parallels between your heightened psychological stress (anxiety) and the pain.

 

[justsuffering]

Thank you for your response.
Some follow ups:

being aware of your anger and actually allowing it to be felt and discharged naturally is a TMS component for many - notice the subtle similarities between that and repressing emotions. Both are physically unfelt, both are held on to. It’s great to try and accept this anger and feel it, but some need to get rid of it more heartily...

So until now I understood that TMS treatment is about recognizing the repressed emotions (which in my case aren't repressed) and continuously telling your brain that the pain is just how it's distracting you from those, and then to dwell on them. While letting go of anger and negative emotions is definitely a wonderful thing, I was not aware that it’s part of the TMS treatment, nor is it part of the 12 daily reminders. As such, please clarify what you mean because I’m not sure what to make of it. Thank you.

The goal with TMS work is to basically learn not to give two craps about the pain. Sleeping crooked is most likely not gonna kill you. Your brain thinks it will, simply because you are on high alert right now. Slowly, over time we retrain ourselves/brains to realize that it might think there’s a fire to put out, but that there really isn’t one. Thoughts are just thoughts. They are not facts.

So it’s not about whether I give two craps or not, but if I’m “not going to let the pain control me” then I will stubbornly keep my head straight (as it ought to be and as it used to be) and I’ll stay up all night. And that’s not realistic. And the problem with “sleeping crooked” isn’t that it’s going to kill me, or fear associated with that, but rather that it’s pulling my left shoulder muscles when I’m in that bad position all night.

...you simply still don’t see the parallels between your heightened psychological stress (anxiety) and the pain.

Please elaborate on this further, as I’m not sure what it means.
Thank you again.

 

[Baseball65]

I actually marinate and stew in my negative thoughts,

You are confusing 'perceived emotions' with 'repressed rage' ...No matter how angry you think you are cosciously, times that by...oh maybe 10, Light it on fire and shove it under a pile of 100 dead Xmas trees..that is what is going on UNCONSCIOUSLY w/o your permission. THOSE emotions are the ones your brain is afraid of you becoming aware of.

Assuming I had TMS, how would that be possible, if the source of the pain isn’t physical?

All of us had little respites and little 'seems to be working' BUT it was only a version of the placebo effect , Or, if we look reaaly carefully, a lot of time we had respite from the rage-makers themselves.

So how real is this “I won’t let the pain control me” thing really?

This is not a 'self talk' treatment...this is a model upon which a number of strategies have developed.... intellectually grasping it is insufficient for recovery,..Sarno was QUITE clear about that

4) After how long should one come to the conclusion that Dr. Sarno’s self talk treatment won’t help them if they’re trying it and nothing’s happening?

Well, see 1,2, and 3. I am not sure you are 'trying' anything. This is a support forum...Not trying to discourage y'all but, you sound like you want something fast. That's what drugs and surgery are for...those failed with all of us. This is a life perception change

 

[Cactusflower]

@Baseball65 is right. Hanging on to rage and anger isn’t processing it.
Emotions are physical sensations that pass in our bodies within seconds to minutes. What you seem to be experiencing is more of a state of mind. I think one of the gysts of Sarno he is saying (not explicitly) that we become very stuck in mind and body. Ridged thinking is a common TMS symptom, we tighten up in mind and body as a reflexive safety mechanism. Your nervous system gets stuck in high gear, when you need it to be flexible.
Becoming more supple -more flexible about our selves, within our thoughts, and Sarno ultimately says in our physical self and in our lives: Think psychological (not just physical), get moving (learn to trust your body), get back to life (conquer fear). Here is Dr. Hanscom on anger. It’s exactly what @Baseball65 is saying. When you are chronically angry you don’t even realize how much anger you carry. You have to get in touch with it, and what often lies underneath it. Emotions rarely come single handedly. This is soul work. It takes time.
https://backincontrol.com/anger-the-absolute-block/ (Anger-The Absolute Block - Back in Control)

 

[justsuffering]

intellectually grasping it is insufficient for recovery...

So what's the next step after intellectually grasping it?

...Hanging on to rage and anger isn’t processing it...
when you need it to be flexible. Becoming more supple -more flexible about our selves, within our thoughts...

So if I understand you correctly, I need to process my anger in order for this treatment to work. So how do I process my anger?

 

[Baseball65]

So what's the next step after intellectually grasping it?
So if I understand you correctly, I need to process my anger in order for this treatment to work. So how do I process my anger?

No. If processing anger made TMS go away , I never would have had it....After an early life as a complete outlaw (and never getting TMS) I began to get TMS at the same time I was getting psychological and spiritual help ALLEGEDLY for , among other problems, my anger. But it was only dealing with my perceived emotions (How I "feel about it") and I got TMS BAAAAAD!

Now....when I 'processed my anger' By Violence and bullying and a lot of other terrible things, I NEVER had symptoms. But this new way of talking about it, writing about it,though I might have become a better citizen, I also developed horrible back and leg and hip pain...surgery, failed treatments, meds,etc, all the way to the chronic pain clinic which is the dumpster of the medical world.

If you've read and understood Sarno, it is not perceived emotions, but the ones Generated and repressed causing the need of a distraction. Murderous rage... Complete tyrannical narcissism! Horrible incomprehensible shame and Loneliness and isolation...if it came to us all at once, we might really snap.

So, we first have to spend time IMAGINING what might be going on in there that we're not privy to...and that is an act of creativity. Point. To recover, besides an open mind, you might need a good imagination, because we have to do a lot of speculating... but as time goes on, with trial and error, you begin to get a sixth sense and develop a way to prevent new outbreaks
... THAT can be different for everybody. John Stossel once did a Video on this very topic . He had TMS and got better via Sarno. Interesting, his brother a sort of know-it-all Ivy league guy did NOT believe him and also did NOT get better!

I come from a know-it-all snobby Ivy league type family (obviously i am the black sheep) and both of my siblings have horrible TMS and both of them have rejected it out of hand even though they watched me recover. My sister is about to have he umpteenth back surgery, but when I mentioned Sarno, she got angry..

I am 58 and can do everything I did when I was 20 with an easy mind and confidence,,,obviously my skills have diminished and my vision aint what it used to be, but i have no restrictions and i USE the freedom it has given me...this isn't just about 'getting out of pain' but also getting into our own lives.

But first we have to somehow get a picture no matter how blurry, of what the hell is down there. Oddly enough, the harder we try to look the faster we heal... You asked about time? I went from a limping crippled depressed POS in a pain clinic to hitting 80mph pitches in the batting cage in three weeks...and I was back at heavy labor in 5 weeks, and have been ever since ('99)

this is not an easy road, but it is a good one.

 

[justsuffering]

...So, we first have to spend time IMAGINING what might be going on in there that we're not privy to...and that is an act of creativity. Point. To recover, besides an open mind, you might need a good imagination, because we have to do a lot of speculating... but as time goes on, with trial and error, you begin to get a sixth sense and develop a way to prevent new outbreaks...

As indicated above, I'm already experiencing the worst kinds of emotions and they’re very much at the forefront of my consciousness. As such, while I’m not saying what you write isn’t true, I wouldn’t have the slightest idea what I’m NOT privy to, and they can’t be any worse than what I already am privy to. Also, I was never one with the greatest imagination. As such, please help me out here, as this is starting to seem more and more unattainable.

 

[Baseball65]

As such, please help me out here, as this is starting to seem more and more unattainable.

Yes and No. Most of us have been where you are an believe me , if anyone has compassion , it is US because we know about it...as Sarno said , TMS is the most painful thing he knows of in clinical medicine.
I have had many accidents in 58 years...severed my thumb, broken back vertebrae, limbs, fell off a diving board and hit my face,etc,etc
NONE of them was as bad as TMS because of the emotional component. None of them made me consider taking my own life to get free.

But this is a support forum. I think of it similar to AA. No matter how debased, how agonizing, how ashamed we are when we show up, a good sponsors job is to show you how F__k'd you are because you have NO way to stop it. Then , once that chasm is crossed and the person ego lets up on "I'm gonna figure my way out of this" real honest introspection can begin. Sarno himself said only the more desperate types will even accept this theory

Whatever your aware of is like a tip of an iceberg. You just see that little 10 yard chunk, but it goes down 150 feet and is 5 times as wide.
In fact, 20+ years has taught me that what I think I am in turmoil about is usually part of the ruse... I might think I am angry because I didn't get a job I bid on, or a girl left me...when the TRUTH way down in there is I really (unconsciously) think I am the foulest person in the world undeserving of human company, and totally useless at my occupation and don't have a clue what I am doing or how to support myself. I don't 'think' that, but once I use that as a premise and act from there, then the symptoms abate....or, I think it is the Job or the girl...Nope.
It is some family crap that I wrote off as 'under control' and blew off as no big deal when the truth is THAT was the iceberg

please help me out here

THAT is why there is a rip roaring trade in 'TMS therapists'. From what I have seen on this board, that is just another way to abrogate your duty as a sufferer.

Imagine your paying me....I hang out with you for 30 minutes, an hour and after listening to you, tell you."Your marriage is a clown show and your wife is using you like a sponsor, and would drop you like a habit at detox the first chance she got to have a better deal"
That was true for me. BUT when someone brought it up, I didn't want to listen to them and went out of my way to avoid them....are you gonna PAY me to tell you life altering painful truths??

I have tried to work with a few people from this group. Hopefully I have helped a couple, BUT many of them had glaringly obvious irritants that they did not have the ability to confront...a partner on whom they were financially dependent, a career they loathe but have a 100K degree buried into, a failed music career, sports dreams, ad infinitum..anything could extend the list. Sarno tells us of a number of others situations.

TMS is a lot like indian poker...everybody can see our cards except for us.

Here's a good started question; If you were a random scientist following yourself around (who was TMS saavy) what would YOUR diagnosis be?

 

[justsuffering]

Here's a good started question; If you were a random scientist following yourself around (who was TMS saavy) what would YOUR diagnosis be?

The clinical one?

 

[Baseball65]

The clinical one?

No. That's the least important.
What is so painful in your life, psyche, living situation that you need a distraction. If it's TMS , then that's why it is there.
TMS is there to 'help' us by keeping us unaware of unconscious anger.
I call it 'an over evolved coping mechanism'

 

[justsuffering]

What is so painful in your life, psyche, living situation that you need a distraction.

That every day is just another round of torture or suffering (depending on the particular day). Between my terrible anxiety, other mental/emotional ailments, toxic living environment, inability to make much use of myself, lost opportunities (at least theoretical perceived ones), and more, I'd assume there's much to distract from. The thing is, I'm not sure what exactly I'm distracted from, since I spend plenty of time in extreme morbid thought as a result of all of the above.

 

[Tms_joe]

"I have lots of negative emotions, as well as anger at life in general, and how my own life turned out in particular. At first glance it would be a no brainer to say that my subconscious is distracting me from all of that by depriving oxygen to those body parts as Dr. Sarno explains. However, not only am I not distracted and never was, I actually marinate and stew in my negative thoughts, constantly think about all of my (mental, emotional, and other) problems, and regularly rage at the unfairness and injustice of my existence."


Your subconscious is prior too the thoughts. The thoughts are there to prevent you from seeing what is under.

I'd be amazed if any human on the planet stewed in negative thoughts constantly, remained angry, and did not manifest physical malfunction after a period of time.

You have some false assumptions causing you to suffer dearly. Only absolute truth can absolutely free someone. So be ready to be wrong about everything and seek some therapy. Your description sounds a lot like it was for myself originally, and traditional therapy got me to a point to where I could apply the truths found on this wiki. The growth from putting life efforts in that direction has not stopped many years later.

I'm sorry you're suffering so much. There is and will be life without it eventually. Be humble and seek that help man. A new path.

 

[JanAtheCPA]

@justsuffering, psychotherapy would also be my recommendation. In my experience, self help is beyond the reach of those who are exhibiting signs of victimhood.

You appear to be totally bogged down in overthinking, resistant to anything that you can't intellectualize, and, ultimately, resistant to emotional vulnerability, which is absolutely essential for recovery.

Your username says it all. This is how you see yourself and, probably unconsciously, how you want others to see you.

The tragedy is that this is not you - it is your traumatized and deeply resistant protective but primitive brain.

I'm deeply saddened by your suffering, and I would strongly urge you to seek professional help to break through your resistance. Your traumatized brain is literally blocking you from achieving the emotional vulnerability needed in order to recover. It's not going to be easy, but I have faith that it can be done.

~Jan

 

[justsuffering]

...and seek some therapy.

psychotherapy would also be my recommendation...
I would strongly urge you to seek professional help to break through your resistance.

Thank you both.

I've been in therapy for many years with various providers (way before my neck and back pain started). Sadly, while there were many great conversations, there were no accomplishments. The various medications I was prescribed by psychiatrists did nothing either.

 

[Baseball65]

This is ALL answered in virtually every text Sarno ever printed.
This isn't about self-discovery...this is about repressed rage....and how it's build up is necessitating symptoms

 

[Cactusflower]

This is ALL answered in virtually every text Sarno ever printed.
This isn't about self-discovery...this is about repressed rage....and how it's build up is necessitating symptoms

I would say that you are actually pointing out exactly what “self-discovery” is for many of us. Most of us do not identify as people who carry anger or rage, so it is very much self-discovery to recognize that we do, and that this is normal.

 

[Baseball65]

so it is very much self-discovery

Yes, but in context of his question, we are back at Sarno's objective point that many of his patients had been in therapy for long times and gotten TMS anyways...so the act of self discovery only works in context of repressed rage. In fact, I had done a million 'inventories' but they took on a new urgency and meaning when I realized that all of the self knowledge was useless out of context for TMS theory

I'ts actually one of the top 'FAQ' sections in ALL of his books. When someone brings that up, I can only assume they aren't reading Sarno.

 

[Tms_joe]

Thank you both.

I've been in therapy for many years with various providers (way before my neck and back pain started). Sadly, while there were many great conversations, there were no accomplishments. The various medications I was prescribed by psychiatrists did nothing either.

The answer to this predicament is actually in the replies you received. You don't want to hear it. That's what is going on with people continually asking advice from numerous strangers on the internet rather than choosing someone who they can put faith in above and beyond themselves. Have a look around at how long many have been posting. Still suffering. It's the equivalent of stewing in negative thoughts. Your strength is in the ability to ignore. Life will improve tremendously just by doing that. I too was this naive.

You're going to have to accept that you are beyond lost and have no idea what you are doing in the journey to fix TMS. Don't expect to keep down this route of not accepting amazingly hard truths and expect anything but INCREASED suffering from what you already experienced. When you've suffered enough to surrender everything....you'll see the answers were right in front of you.

 

[justsuffering]

When you've suffered enough to surrender everything...

What exactly does "surrender everything" mean?