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Day 1 - Not sure whether frozen shoulder is a TMS

Discussion in 'Support Subforum' started by Digby55, Jul 20, 2013.

  1. Digby55

    Digby55 New Member

    Hi - Day 1. Hv just purchased John Sarno's Mind Body Prescription book. Really keen to try Sarno's recommended tx. Can anybody clarify whether a frozen shoulder can result fm TMS? This condition not indexed in Mind Body or The Mind Prescription or listed on sx side bar of this website. Will keep posting and reading. Oh yes - trigger points or myotherapy tx - especially Clair Davis work - is anybody familiar with this tx? Great site - very heartening!!!
     
    North Star likes this.
  2. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Hi Digby, I am also suffering from a "frozen elbow" & "frozen shoulder" since about one year now.
    The pain sure was TMS-related as I never injured my shoulder. But made the mistake to give it a brake way too long with the result: my shoulder is very painful and stiff now. Doctor told me I have to get phyio to mobilize it again. He thinks my pain is psychosomatic in origin but, as I did not move my shoulder for a long time, the stiffness is structural in the meantime due to a shrinked capsule or something like that (what is really, really frightening me!). Well, actually I don't get physio because I don't want to dalay my TMS healing. But at the same time I am very frightened that, without physio, my shoulder remains stiff or gets even more stiff (I still have a small range of movement).
    And yes, I am very familiar to trigger points and myotherapy. Did dry needling for a long time, with no long lasting result: TRPs disappeared for a short while only to pop up somehwhere else or in the same place again.
    Here I asked something about triggerpoints and TMS, check it out, there're some very helpful informations in it
    http://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/some-confirmation-needed-trigger-points.1881/

    So I am also very interested in experiences from members of this board with so called "frozen shoulders". I am especially interested in knowing if the stiffness/"frozenness" could be a TMS symptom itself and nothing structural.

    Doctor and I agreed that a MRI was not a good idea in my case as it holds the danger of a nocebo if some structural abnormalities would be found. So no MRI or further techniqual examination was done.

    In "The Divided Mind" shoulder pain (often in the biceps tendon) is mentioned (and often misdiagnosed as impingement or rotator cuff tear, but I don't remember somebody mentionied a frozen shoulder)..so hopefully it's TMS!.

    I guess my shoulder got worse because of a nocebo of my ostheopath. He described in detail the horror of this condition and that surgery is inevitable and so on. A few months later I developped, step by step, pain in every muscle and especially tendon around my shoulder and very slowly it got stiff as I was in fear to use it normal due to the pain. What a surprise...
     
  3. Digby55

    Digby55 New Member

    Hi Birdie - tks for yr reply. I am sorry to hear about yr difficulties. I hv heard that entrenched frozen shoulder sx are difficult to resolve and often surgery is the recommended course of action. Given that the condition doesn't come up in lists of conditions that can be assisted by Dr Sarno's reccomendations I am not sure whether my expect ions are too high. Obviously there are some physical conditions that surely wld not respond to applying psychological thinking. I will keep searching the literature and see what I find. All the best.
     
  4. Gigi

    Gigi Well known member

    You may want to check out Steve Ozanich's book The Great Pain Deception. He has the most exhaustive list of TMS-related symptoms that I've seen. It was in reviewing this list that I realized that my most recent symptoms were manifestations of TMS. I had suffered with them for 2 years, but after working the SEP and reading all the TMS literature I could get my hands on I discovered some things that work for me. I've been pretty much pain free for 3 months now.
     
  5. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Gigi, I read StevenO's book but perhaps should read it twice. I also know his huge lists of TMS-symptoms. Never the less I'd find it more calming to know somebody who overcame this with a TMS-approach.
    Found this article: very old, but still interesting and perhaps the personality traits described by the authors were some of the T-type-personality traits? Here's some research about "personality in frozen shoulder":
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1006580/pdf/annrheumd00036-0069.pdf
     
  6. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    ok guys I was diagnosed with frozen shoulder by 1 doctor and another doctor told me it was a rotator cuff tear. Now my symptoms were in both categories so really I just settled with the name rotator cuff tear which is brought up in-Tms healing. The doctors told me it would take years to heal on its own and honestly for the better part of twenty years with that prognosis planted in my mind I don't hardly ever remember getting any relief- then in a turn over in bed 1 night I got it in my other shoulder.

    So I basically couldn't raise my arm above rib cage, I couldn't throw an egg if I wanted too, I would hurt all night whether I laid right side, left side or back -- the pain was like 24-7 tendonitis which developed shortly after in my left arm. I've had the x rays with scar tissue and small tears in the tendons- like I said above this lasted most of my adult life. After the appointed time its supposed to take to heal I would start to feel good enough to throw a football and wham, same pain, same issue, same problem.

    Well here we go another 1-3 years of not being able to do anything but lie in pain at night and hope I didn't have to move my arm to far in a wrong direction during the daytime or I'd have pain. And lord knows if id have to raise my hand in school to ask a question in my college days id just wave and hope the professor saw me.

    Like I said above it never went away for long and I expected to have it the rest of my life. For me, fear of movement and what if it never goes away thoughts were always at the forefront of my mind. Not until I read sarnos works and his protocols did I ever get any relief, I approached it just the way I approached my back pain -- the same way as sarno suggest in his healing back pain book.

    Not to focus anymore on that part of my body- which pretty much always had my focus -- journal daily about the past, present, things I couldn't change and things I could. I honestly just believed I could heal for the first time in over twenty years. I really believed Sarnos approach with all my heart and I went with it. The fear of re injury or it coming back was phenomenal so I had to recondition these thought patterns too.

    Id say within 90 days I was doing everything I ever wanted to do like throwing the football to my son -- doing push-ups and bench pressing with no problems. If I want to raise my arms now, I do with no problems. It was the tms healing approach with full confidence guys it took care of what 1 Dr. called frozen shoulder and the other Dr. called rotator cuff tear. Now very seldom will the pain try to rear its ugly head (Conditioning).

    At this point I can literally tell it to stop and it does, I know that sounds out there but it works for me. I
    stopped the fear thoughts that were running wild to a halt -- and I truly with all my heart believed and I
    healed. Im no doctor but I have my story and its truth. I wish you the best Digby55 -- and Birdie your a
    blessing, im so glad to see you here. Gigi your an inspiration of hope
    God Bless
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2014
  7. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Eric, I am so glad about your response, I really needed an encouraging story like that! I really see myself in everything you described: the fear that the frozenness may last "forever" and the permanent focus on my shoulder & elbow, fear of movement and so on. I am very prone to tendonpain all over my body so actually it's not a big surprise. But concerning the shoulder the nocebo plays a really big role. As in your case my doctors also told me that a frozen shoulder is something very hard to remove. So your words gave me some hope back that's really TMS and can be overcome! So, Digby55, let's go on!
     
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  8. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    Thank you Birdie, you'll see it'll let up, just do the protocol- loose the focus and fear
    no time limits and well
    you know the reminders-
    Bless you
     
    donavanf likes this.
  9. Digby55

    Digby55 New Member

    Thanks everyone - and for your encouragement Eric and Birdie. I read the article on personality types and frozen shoulder....Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Ahem!!! So......what Im struggling with right now is the decision to commit to either TMS (I have started the TMS program on TMS Wiki) or Clair Davies' Trigger Point Therapy Program for Frozen Shoulder. Both Sarno and Davies sound equally convincing. Mr Davies has sinced past on but his daughter is involved in trigger point work and is about to release the third edition of her fathers well known book. John E Sarno is equally esteemed and I really do think his work is important. It wld be fascinating to hear Dr Sarno's opinion on trigger point therapy / Clair Davis or Bonnie Pruden. Ive read Sarno's Pain Prescription book - very good. I am now up to day four of TMS wiki program but stopped when Davis' book on trigger point therapy for frozen shoulders arrived in the mail. Im well aware that I need to commitment. Eric - did you complete the entire program? Did you experience days when you couldn't get to it? Mostly I need to consider how to dampen down the inner skeptic. I work in a hospital surrounded by evidence based medical treatments, models and practice. My bestie....psychologist in rehab campus...thinks Sarno's model is dubious to say the least but does accept mind body connection and role of stress and worry. Not particulary keen on psychoanalysis approach - pain as a protective distraction fm the real issue appears to be a bit of a reach for my clever psychologist friend. Sitting on the fence here in Oz re: TMS or Trigger Point for Frozen Shoulder. Thanks again for reading / replying
     
  10. Anne Walker

    Anne Walker Beloved Grand Eagle

    Digby55 - I don't know how long it takes to expect results from the Clair Davies Tigger Point Therapy Program but it may just be something that you need to try and see if it works. I have had TMS without realizing it for over 20 years. I have had success numerous times with various therapies in getting out of chronic pain conditions. When it works it is wonderful and I don't regret the things I tried and the relief it gave me. This recent(7 months now) bout with neck/head/shoulder pain did not respond to all my usual treatments - physical therapy, accupuncture, chiro, massage etc. And this is what finally led me to discovering that I have TMS. But even since this realization and feeling 100% sure that I have TMS( truly I have no doubt about this) I have had an MRI and seen doctors about some other things, and I can now see clearly that it is all TMS for me. But making all the necessary changes and putting into practice all that I know and have learned, is an ongoing process. I am just trying to say that if the Trigger Point Therapy Program works for you, then that is great. Be happy and live. And if it doesn't work, or some other pain symptom pops up down the line, well now you know about TMS and you can always work on it. There is actually a whole lot about TMS recovery that does not preclude working on other therapies and they are techniques that are good and helpful for everyone - mindfulness meditation, journaling, sitting with your emotions, being aware of your inner bully, thinking psychologically. It is all good for your health and empowering. It is just the confidence and belief in the root cause of the current pain that can prolong pain symptoms by continuing to think physically rather that psychologically. And some people, like me, feel compelled to explore all other options first. Initially, all I was focused on was getting out of pain and what I needed to do to get there. Although I am still in pain(even though it keeps shifting all over the place, including increased anxiety and insomnia) I am beginning to understand how pain is a signal for something deeper going on. As I continue to push and explore these things, I am changing. I am not the same person I was a few months ago. Even though in some ways I am even a bigger mess, I am so much more aware of myself. Its as if I was in the middle of a tornado and somehow my pain symptoms had me focused on keeping one window closed.
     
  11. Birdie

    Birdie Peer Supporter

    Digby55, I am very familiar with the theory of triggerpoints and also have C. Davies book in my shelf. I did all forms of TRPs for a very long time and for a lot of money (could have better bought a small car from it!): dry needling, TRP-massage-techniques and even the very painful shockwave-therapy. NONE of that therapies worked in the long run, there was always only a very short relief concerning my arm/shoulder pain so I gave it up. Before that I had lots of TRPs all over my glutes and upper leg, wasn't able to sit for 10 minutes and was in pain 24/7. When 1,5 years (!!!!) of massage and dry needling finally were successful it ....what a surprise....shifted to my right elbow & shoulder. I remembered how much money my husband had to pay for all these treatments only to settle down in a new place. Now these nasty TRPs are all in my neck/shoulders/arms!
    So that lead me to the conclusion that treating the symptoms at the surface will only lead to something what Sarno calls the symptom imperative.
    Davies is not wrong when he claims TRPs for a condition like frozen shoulder. But in my opinion the TRPs are only the visible & palpaple manifestation of the TMS.
    If you give it a try and you don't achieve long lasting results OR instead of your frozen shoulder you get new symptoms you know it's TMS for sure.
    Sometimes, when my pain is so intense that it's radiating down my arm into my fingertips and I am unable to sleep, I massage some TRPs even though I know that I "should not" because that does not adress the underlying causes. It's always good for a very short pain relief but not later than some hours the TRP is back again. And when I read the story of Davies I am sure was a TMS sufferer himself!
     
  12. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    Digby55)- Thanks everyone - and for your encouragement Eric and Birdie. I read the article on personality types and frozen shoulder....Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Ahem!!! So......what Im struggling with right now is the decision to commit to either TMS (I have started the TMS program on TMS Wiki) or Clair Davies' Trigger Point Therapy Program for Frozen Shoulder. Both Sarno and Davies sound equally convincing. Mr Davies has sinced past on but his daughter is involved in trigger point work and is about to release the third edition of her fathers well known book. John E Sarno is equally esteemed and I really do think his work is important. It wld be fascinating to hear Dr Sarno's opinion on trigger point therapy / Clair Davis or Bonnie Pruden. Ive read Sarno's Pain Prescription book - very good. I am now up to day four of TMS wiki program but stopped when Davis' book on trigger point therapy for frozen shoulders arrived in the mail. Im well aware that I need to commitment. Eric - did you complete the entire program?

    Eric)- if your struggling to commit then it shows your still in doubt as to if the tms program is all it says it is- well I've tried trigger point therapy- (myofacial release) and still it was about the body only, not any repression release or trauma release or learning how to work the calm /sooth ratio- there's so many aspects to the tms healing therapy that are so different from trigger point therapy that if you think the two are alike- well.......- I have a good friend Tennis tom that has tried trigger point therapy and he knows it doesn't hold a candle to sarno - getting well and losing the pain for good is our goal here and not masking the issue with temporary placebo cures- now I do believe in eft and tapping but I only added that to my therapy after I had the pain gone from correcting my out of control thoughts- our mind can and does get a life of its own without our awareness and when we take that control back and start to practice it everyday, then and only then are you on the rd to recovery.
    and yes I did the program, it was awesome and very liberating as I said above, a new found power to expose the repressions that held me as a prisoner to my pain in my own bottled up thought life- were very well educated people with hearts to match and now we can understand why we have to go through this hell when all we wanted to do was be kind and loving to others - now we can understand the mechanism a bit better and its through this knowledge therapy that we heal- I love the way Dr. Sarno puts it- its an understanding....my advice would be to heal from doing Sarnos program first then if you want to continue into Clair Davies trigger point therapy- it really helps me when I've walked a lot and want to get to those muscles that are on top of the bone and under the muscles that we see ya know- I wouldn't do them at the same time although I did for a while with a parkour kid from the net named James- see his regimen had a combination of yoga and trigger point therapy but I soon gave his directions up cause I was expecting somehow for his exercises to help give me a release in the pain and it never did- only when I approached with a full belief in Sarnos work did I finally get the healing I was seeking


    Digby55)- Did you experience days when you couldn't get to it? Mostly I need to consider how to dampen down the inner skeptic.

    Eric)- yes I had days when I didn't get to it, very rare but I had some of those day- I continuously thought psychologically on those days, and I would repeat in my mind like all day for a month I think- peace, patience, love , goodness, joy etc.... on those days I worked and did just about what I wanted to- only till I got home would I start to feel the pain come back , but as I kelp up with the therapy one night after watching a TV show on hope I understood it was my own mind that was holding the pain in and wham I was healed- recondition your thoughts with the inner skeptic by doing exactly the opposite of the negative thoughts it says- if it says what if this isn't true, then look at the success stories and show it -it is true, if you have a bad day and you've been doing good then remember tms healing isn't linear if you keep doing your homework it will leave again and eventually you will hardly even notice that at one time in your life you had pain- it will be noticeable though cause youll have a growing compassion to help others heal

    Digby55)- I work in a hospital surrounded by evidence based medical treatments, models and practice. My bestie....psychologist in rehab campus...thinks Sarno's model is dubious to say the least but does accept mind body connection and role of stress and worry. Not particulary keen on psychoanalysis approach - pain as a protective distraction fm the real issue appears to be a bit of a reach for my clever psychologist friend. Sitting on the fence here in Oz re: TMS or Trigger Point for Frozen Shoulder. Thanks again for reading / replying

    Eric)- As long as you follow the folks heading to the land of Oz, you'll never get better- Digby you have to step outside the box and do this for yourself- it takes
    a knowing in your gut of the truth. when I started I had a gut feeling this was it- I had read sarnos books and all the success stories and I believed them- I saw the episode on 20/20 where the Dr. said he could say something about swinging a chicken around his head if folks wanted to believe him- really that was absurd,
    Sarno has thousands or tens of thousands of documented healings - I wonder where the other Drs. healing level ranks- See, folks aint going to believe when ya tell them- I wished they did, I've seen so many friends get unessary operations , it just made me feel bad- I had to stop taking their decisions so personal- it was my goodist personality only wanting the best for them but I was in recovery myself and if I kept listening to them, well id still be in pain- so heres your choice, only you can make it- I hope you chose now the best rather than later- although you can always come back when your ready. I know digby as others that have healed here, your right where you belong and deep inside something has peeked your interest- go with it and heal....
     
    G.R. likes this.
  13. leonardo999

    leonardo999 Well known member

    Hello Eric

    This is an interesting post.... and a problem that Ive had for years in addition to the spinal stuff and urology stuff.
    Have not been able to support my self with my hands or wrists for maybe 20 years and have to always go onto my forearms and knees.
    Shoulder pain and rotator cuff thing also here now for 6 months.. so my movements are very limited for any throwing (out of the question)
    but reading these posts gives some more hope for sure...... The pain levels really mess with your confidence. I have trainerd myself to not use normal reflex when falling or tripping over... and take the blow with shoulders and upper arms..... not hands or wrists. OMG .. it gets so complicated.
    Regards
    Leoooooo
     
    Eric "Herbie" Watson likes this.
  14. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    Leonardo you told me your schedule with your daily routine right?
     
  15. leonardo999

    leonardo999 Well known member

    Hello Eric...
    No I dont think Ive mentioned any routine so far..I dont have one yet..... just that Im new here and reading into TMS and just started writing about things in my life that have induced fear or shock or dissappointment etc...

    Leooooo
     
  16. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    ok your getting it out, doing great
    keep with the style you have
    its your own timing that helps
    in other words , you go at a feel good pace
    sometimes we can get in a hurry ya know
    I did,
    just go with your peace- you'll be just fine
    glad your movin forward
    sometimes we think we haven't moved in weeks
    when all along our subconscious has been retraining itself the whole time
     
  17. leonardo999

    leonardo999 Well known member

    Hi Eric.......
    Thanks for the messages.
    I want to do it right...... so Im reading over again...... as the whole thing is new to me.
    Just reading The Divided Mind too ...Sarno really interesting stuff.

    Leooooooo
     
  18. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    You're doing great Leonardo999, Great.
     
  19. Pilot in pain

    Pilot in pain Peer Supporter

    I did not read all of these posts but please get a video on line or amazon called "Doctored". It is about the chiropractic profession. I am not saying that a chiropractor is the answer to all problems, on the contrary in my pain quest I have been to 3 of them and they have done nothing but there is a section in that film that addresses frozen shoulder and how there are specific types of chiropractors that work on this and they show the before and afters of literally dozens of people who can not raise their arm up an inch in some places and others that can go to 90 degrees on one side and all the way up on another. I am pretty sure I am TMS and all my pain has historically been in my back but 2 days ago I work up with a completely frozen shoulder. I can not move mine now more than 30 degrees from down and I did not do anything and I certainly have never had it before so likely TMS in action but I dont know enough about TMS to be able to fix it yet so I am going to ask my chiropractor about it. If you watch that documentary you will see the section and it talks about folks who can fix it without surgery at all. Hopefully folks in here have been able to give you advice on how to fix it using Sarno techniques but there are other alternatives to surgery for it.
     
  20. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle

    pilot in pain seems like your onto some thoughts
    have you read sarnos works and have a protocol?
    be nice to hear from you- I wasn't able to hold my arm up at all
    mostly had to let it dangle.
     

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