Can we talk about ‘secondary gain’? (What are you maybe getting from having TMS)

[Diana-M]

allowing the rage (guilt, grief) to flow through you, to feel it without judgement. Also accepting that some days are dark, some days are hard and that's OK - it's part of the human experience and it's OK to allow yourself to feel these things.

This is soooo true! I think allowing the feelings to flow is really important! Learning to let them be part of your conscious world. For me, anger has been non existent so learning what it feels like in my body has been hard to learn. I don’t know if I’m there yet. But I’m working on it. And also recognizing that it is a normal human emotion. It’s actually ok to feel it.

 

[Diana-M]

@Baseball65 @Sita @Cactusflower

we learn to beat ourselves up in the strangest of ways!

I agree with you guys on this one!

 

[Andy Bayliss]

This is a touchy subject for me. I think back to when I had chronic pain and felt the sting of many people assuming I was making up my symptoms to get out of something. I started to believe it myself at times. I did a lot of self-examination around this. I made lists of any possible benefit I might be obtaining from being disabled. Sure, there were some things on that list that seemed believable, mostly around avoiding social interactions. But I ultimately concluded that the pain I was enduring was not worth this.

To me this discussion is great, and so nuanced. I love the understanding of participants...to look below the perceived secondary gain for the fundamental psychological dynamics.

When I read Dr. Sarno saying there is essentially no or little "secondary gain" in TMS activity, I was greatly relieved. It wasn't me "doing this to myself to get x, y, or z." I have a very strong Inner Critic, and his words landed on me with great compassion. What I heard is that something (unconscious) was going inside me which my Inner Critic could not beat myself up for "having done this to myself to gain something." Great compassion to let someone with a mind like mine completely off the hook. I appreciate your explanation Baseball of the pain clinic approach and beliefs around this. I think if I'd landed in a place like that, I would have festered, feeling caught in a bind and that there is a layer of "blaming the victim." And the "secondary gain" theory would have kept me looking ---and suffering in my looking, much more on the surface. To me Dr. Sarno's view is so clean.

 

[Sita]

... the truth is saving people and we are just passing on the fragment we have been given freely.

This is correct. And to be honest I would not be able to ask money from all these suffering people in order to share this truth with them. I could not.

 

[Sita]

All of the secondary gain therapists pre-suppose that something 'real' (structural) really did happen and that the sufferer has built a conditioned magnification of it via the 'gains' he is receiving....my story for instance, of having a lot of 'real' visible issues, but the symptoms not matching correctly (herniation on left , pain in right leg, etc)

It is the Main theory behind all of the therapies in Chronic pain clinics....so they reward non-pain behavior and punish pain behavior....and very few people ever escape them...they either run out of money, insurance, or they eventually die. it's like the roach motel...they check in, but no one checks out

I didn't know about this theory behind Chronic pain clinics. I wish I knew earlier all these. I had a therapist guy one time, he was obese. A chiropractor. He said that he'll help me to feel much much better in a month if I come 3 times/week. My husband insisted that we go and see him. I didn't want to go, I knew at that time about Sarno's theories. Anyway, long story short, I went. I went to him for 6 weeks.

He said that I have a shorter leg (it's true) and a higher hip and wanted me to wear something in my right shoe for support to get the heel higher. He sold me a special belt and another 'thing' for toning my core area. He was full of s... My husband insisted on keeping an open mind and to continue to see this 'expert'.

At one point I complained to the chiropractor that I gained some weight and I could not lose it and that I was struggling. He said that after he'll cure me I'll lose the weight NOT BEFORE. So I have to continue to come to him so he can cure me. This was his last comment, my last visit. After 6 weeks of treatments. The freak was a star chiropractor, working with athletes and so on. An older and "experienced" guy. His comment about healing me and losing the extra weight was so idiotic that ... it forced me to see the light clearer and to never go back again to see him. He could not lose his own extra weight (he was obese!!!) but was the f expert healer capable of fixing me. What a joke. I told my husband: "I never want to hear about any type of treatment and I'll never go back to that freak again, never!"

The obese freak, actually his secretary called me at home after this 4 times in order to convince me to go back. They were desperate for my money, she had no shame in calling me 4 times. I said "No". It was very hard not to yell on the phone to her:"No f way, you freaks!" Pardon my French.

 

[Baseball65]

He was full of s...

I just remembered my ex-wives 'healer'..I forget what his official title was, BUT....

I kept hearing about 'Dr. Marty saved so and so'...in hushed tones of awestruck adoration. Based on who was saying it (middle class trophy wives)
I GUESSED he was a 40something good-looking preppy type....and I was right! He was an Osteo or Chiro or one of those pretend doctor titles.


Dr. Marty used to place items in people's palm and then press on limbs and 'check their strength' and determine their 'allergies'... Being someone who works with physics and Leverage almost everyday of his life, It wasn't hard to tell that is was all a SHAM. Moving a pivot point 1" completely changes its load bearing capacity, but I digress

This idiot told my Son he had a CORN allergy. My ex was so excited about the snake oil salesman she was dragging my kids there to be 'cured' (They weren't sick)

So, Dr. Baseball65 took my recently diagnosed son to a 7-11 with his brother and told them to get any candy they wanted out of the rack. His older brother got a pretty healthy pile of stuff on the counter, but every time my 'Corn Allergic' son placed something on the counter, I would read the ingredients.
"Nope...contains Corn starch, try again"
"Nope, contains corn meal , try again"
"Nope contains Corn syrup, try again"

Finally, I said "Look, I don't want to see you have an allergic reaction...DR. Marty says you're allergic to Corn. These MnM's and this snickers bar are both LOADED with corn Products, BUT I'll buy them for you. When you have that allergic reaction, I will ban you from them FOR LIFE!"

Needless to say, He ate both and was fine. In fact, he wanted a few more, which I gladly bought him.

I came home and told my then-wife "Hey, Guess what? I am a Healer TOO!" I cured our son of his 'Corn Allergy'"

there is a LOT of BS out there to sort through.

 

[learningmore]

Hopefully I can clarify. In terms of secondary gain, we can become attached to symptoms like a companion, a "frenemy" or a bad marriage, where it becomes so familiar that it feels "safe". It's also a great way of opting out of situations without having to cause disappointment or feel blamed for refusing. Tms 'ers are typically conflict avoidant and not great with setting boundaries. In terms of my comment in the interview...tms is the unrecognized defense in psychology. Symptoms "defend" us from the things we don't want to see about ourselves and from intolerable emotions, but they also "defend" loved ones and others, in the sense that it ensures that we don't aggress towards them or shirk our responsibilities to them. In other words it has a protective function for both ourselves and others. If you look at other defenses (there are dozens), they tend to negatively impact others. Since Tms'ers are goodists, they choose the most highly evolved defense that will do the least damage to anyone else. The repression (anger etc. turned inward ) manifests in physical pain or symptoms. This is also the most socially acceptable defense. In my case, I had homicidal thoughts and impulses towards my own son. This was so profoundly unacceptable to my psyche and sense of self, that they became repressed and left to fester in my unconscious. When I learned that these feelings and impulses were actually not lethal, and no indicator of my virtue or sanity, I could finally tolerate them (affect tolerance) and stop being self critical for having them. My emotions did not equate with absence of love for my son, which was my underlying terror. By freeing myself from the self judgment I had about my own emotions, I resolved the inner conflict, the guilt dissolved, and the anger was felt and detoxified, and thus, the tms defense strategy disabled. I had freed my body from the mind's purpose.

Wow, this.

My first instinct is "HOLY SHIT I SHOULD KILL THAT PERSON" and then I feel like a horrible person for even having that thought.

I just put that thought out there in the universe.

I am a terrible person.

Only shitty people kill people, I am no better than the people I despise.

Then I feel like I'm a trash human for even having such a shitty thought.

I mean, I spend a large part of my day hating shitty people, narcissists, abusers, etc. I mean they make the world shitty and it's their fault. But then I have to classify myself the same as them. Because who am I to have those thoughts?

So you're saying just have the thoughts because they aren't real?

 

[learningmore]

Then there is Steve Ozanich in his The Great Pain Deception at page 276, where he discussed things like “hitting pillows, or screaming at photos, or anything that is called venting.” He wrote:

“Multiple studies today show this is not helpful in the long run and in fact is dangerous because it strengthens the roots of anger. Throwing things and hitting things only exhausts you and fools you into believing your anger is gone, but in fact, it just leaves you too exhausted to be angry. The roots of the anger remain buried. Venting can make you angrier, and the next time you see the person you are angry at, you may practice what you have rehearsed by hitting him or screaming at him. Venting is conditioning.”
​

The emphasis is Ozanich’s.

Dr. Sarno said we repress emotions that we have learned are too dangerous or too painful to experience. His chief psychologist Arlene Feinblatt has said venting only makes you realize how dangerous your anger is. Perhaps the implication is that the next time someone angers you, you will be more likely to repress it more deeply.

What's the goal, then? Repressing is bad. Smacking objects is bad (I read about doing this in Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, as good advice), and venting is bad? So when you see the person you're angry at you're supposed to vent AT them?

 

[Andy Bayliss]

So you're saying just have the thoughts because they aren't real?

Yes. The folks here on the Forum who have self-knowledge about what probably causes their TMS have, almost to a person, accepted that we have these hateful thoughts toward others. It is human. It is natural to have these thoughts. That is part of the journey that one must take. It goes very much against our upbringing, because these thoughts, we're taught, "make us bad people."

We don't act them out on others. We, with clear eyes acknowledge the reality of these thoughts and feelings, and forgive ourselves.

Working with the Inner Critic is often very important because it is the Inner Critic which "makes us wrong" for these thoughts/feelings. Inner Critic activity blocks awareness, and worse, blocks self-forgiveness. It keeps us in the mind-loops you describe.

Dr. Sarno taught that TMS is caused by the tension between what we're feeling down deep, and what is acceptable to our conscious conditioned self.

Yeats (not Wordsworth) described the evolution, out of these loops, and if you take this in, he's talking about release of attachment to our conditioned sense of "who we take ourselves to be." And in this understanding, there is no "sin" as we observe, with compassion, parts of ourselves engage the world the way they do with their reactivity, hate, anger, whatever... But we don't act it out on others, as best we can.

I am content to follow to its source
Every event in action or in thought;
Measure the lot; forgive myself the lot!
When such as I cast out remorse
So great a sweetness flows into the breast
We must laugh and we must sing,
We are blest by everything,
Everything we look upon is blest.

 

[Diana-M]

The folks here on the Forum who have self-knowledge about what probably causes their TMS have, almost to a person, accepted that we have these hateful thoughts toward others. It is human. It is natural to have these thoughts. That is part of the journey that one must take. It goes very much against our upbringing, because these thoughts, we're taught, "make us bad people."

Thanks for this, Andy. I agree. And it really is something to grow through self discovery, and be able in real time, to just say these “truths” to yourself. They are true to a childish part of you and it’s actually making you sick. Then let’s just feel them, say them and be done with them. You know, I’ll admit a horrible one right here in public. I wish my sons never got married. I want them all to myself. (That’s not the Real Me….Or is it?!!! )