Help me understand something

There is an aspect of TMS and Sarno that has always bothered me and I'm stewing today on much increased pain, so I figured I would throw it out there. We have these studies that show that people with bulging or herniated discs or other spinal "abnormalities" don't have pain, so we make the assumption those issues don't cause pain. How? How is it possible to say just because it doesn't it some people, it shouldn't in others? I think that's a logic leap I can't wrap my head around.

This brought to you by a severe increase in nerve pain down my leg and wondering if my old lumbar disc issues came back after healing once (based on MRI; my spinal ortho said the disc healed).

 

I view it as the fact that bulging, herniated discs, spinal stenosis, and other abnormalities are signs of normal wear and tear of the spine. Similar to how our skin changes with age, far more wrinkles etc, the spine does a similar change. We wouldn't expect an old person to have baby smooth skin so why would we expect any adult to have a perfect spine. People don't get pain from the normal aging process of the skin and that logic can be extended to the spine. That is confirmed by the evidence in the studies that you shared above.

In your case, if you have an MRI saying that the disc is healed that is strong evidence that the increase of pain is TMS rather than nerve damage - especially if you have been checked out by your doctor.

In fact, Dr Schubiner looks out for nerve pain down a whole leg or arm as a sign of TMS. Why? Because nerves dont tend to affect an entire limb - nerve damage tends to be localised into small areas of the body.

 

Dr. David Hanscom, a former complex spine surgeon, is a prominent advocate for the view that bulging or herniated discs and other spinal “abnormalities” are not the cause of most back pain. His key points on this topic include:

• Disc degeneration, bone spurs, bulging and herniated discs are normal parts of aging and are commonly found in people without any pain. He states, “We do know very clearly that disc degeneration has nothing to do with back pain. So arthritis, bone spurs, bulging discs, herniated discs, ruptured discs… disc degeneration has nothing to do with back pain”.
  
  
• Most spine surgery for back pain is unnecessary: Hanscom argues that unless there is a clear structural problem with symptoms that match, surgery is unlikely to help. He estimates that at least half, and possibly up to 70%, of spine surgeries for back pain should not be done.
  
  
• Back pain is usually not a structural problem: He emphasizes that back pain is often non-specific and likely muscular or neurological in nature, not directly caused by what is seen on imaging. “Back pain is not a structural problem. It’s non-specific, and it’s probably muscular in nature. The problem with muscular pain is that it hurts … just because you can’t see it on a test doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt”.
  
  
• Disc degeneration is never a reason for surgery: Hanscom is clear that having disc degeneration or similar findings on an MRI is not an indication for surgery. He only supports surgery for clear cases like trauma, tumor, or infection, or when there are matching symptoms such as sciatica or leg pain due to nerve compression.
  
  
• Chronic back pain is a neurological disorder: He believes chronic pain is a complex neurological process influenced by stress, sleep, mental health, and lifestyle, and requires a comprehensive, non-surgical approach to treatment.
  

In summary, Dr. Hanscom’s position is that most spinal abnormalities seen on imaging do not cause pain and should not be treated surgically unless there are clear, matching symptoms. He advocates for addressing the neurological and psychosocial aspects of pain rather than focusing on structural findings.

 

Thanks, @BloodMoon . I have read his book, but I guess in my mind my symptoms match what they are seeing, although I haven't had my lumbar checked again since I started having sciatica again because I am MRI'd out, so many in the past few years!

I appreciate you sharing this summary.

 

Didn’t you coincidentally start the SEP again? That could be why the increase in pain.

 

Indeed I did. I'm only 3 days in (4 today) but I've still been doing some journaling work and meditation. I don't know that I have hit on anything new, but who knows.

 

I have to say, after my run today I might have to turn it in, which makes me very sad. I'm too worried about stress fractures now.

 

@Rusty Red
When you have worries like an unfounded worry about a stress fracture, it’s nothing but an anxious mind. This is where STOP comes in. You have the thought. You say “stop” and turn your mind elsewhere.
I swear I had to do this 1,000 times an hour at one point, but it worked! Now when I get those thoughts it’s easy not to believe them. I understand it’s just my mind sensing a “danger” and I ask myself outside of the TMS and sensations what’s going on.
Sometimes there is something that comes up, sometimes not. But I know the reason is not physical.

 

I've been told a few times when I say that I exercise for my mental health that I'm doing that to cover for something else and that I should stop and deal with the issues instead. I'm in several groups so I can't say for sure where all it has come from.

I can remove the post if that would be better.

 

I'm going to get it checked out by my GP, hopefully, unless he refers me back to my ortho. Gave in to the fear, I guess.

 

Quoting myself to say he won't do it and wants me to go to their sports med clinic. I don't want a whole new set of providers so I guess I'm throwing it in on running.

 

I have not seen you post specifically about exercising for “mental health”, @Rusty Red
I did however see that you had posted about exercising and being incredibly defensive when it was mentioned to take some rest.
I saw you post about weighing yourself daily on a thread you were posting about exercise
I’ve noticed you seem to feel put out by having to take a rest day from running and mentioning “sadness” at feeling you must stop running because of your catastrophic fears (stress fractures).
There is something going on within this jumble of anger, sadness, defensiveness and bitterness. I think your brain is reading one thing when people are writing about something else and your mind is resisting really hard.
You know, it really boils down to you just being incredibly hard on you for whatever reason. Why so touchy about you being driven beyond reason to run when in pain - that is not a criticism, that’s an actual question.
Where does that drive come from?
Did you read the blog post I put on a thread for you about a month ago? It absolutely addresses this (and it’s written by an athlete who has a lot of drive and self-motivation).
I just get the feeling there is more behind this, and I’ve tried kindly hinting at it, but it’s really up to you to decide if now is the time for you to try and explore that, or not.
Running (and other exercise) can be self-soothing and meditative for some folks. The key is, can you practice embodiment while you run?

 

I did read the blog post. I'm sure my reasons for running aren't the greatest with the body image issues and I have dug very deeply into it with journaling. I just don't want to give it up, even if my reasons aren't the best. It's a big part of my life. I also feel better having that sense of control with weighing myself and knowing where I am, as well as macro tracking. I know a lot of people (not here) frown on it so I guess that's where I get some of the defensiveness, projected in the wrong area.

At this point, though, I guess my body isn't going to give me the choice about running. I accept the blame for that. I guess I've kind of decided I'm stuck like this because there are aspects of myself I just don't want to change.

 

I'm sorry, but like I said, I have dug as deep as I can find into this. I know my issues around body image and that I use exercise, running in particular, for anxiety control/mental health. I don't know what else there is emotional there and I've journaled about both many times from many angles. I understand my recovery isn't based on running or not running, it's just my preference to run, but my legs won't let me at this point. I'm not a victim by any means, just the way things are right now. I understand athletes have periods where they can't be such, even if I don't like it. I guess that's my acceptance at this point?

 

@Rusty Red
Ohh, those words "GIVING UP" are strong. Have you reflected on them?
What about "giving up" on yourself are you afraid of? Where does the idea of "giving up" come from? NOBODY here told you to "give up" on running.
They asked you to try and give up on the self-pressure around running, and you keep defending that as "my reasons are not the best". We're asking you to try and replace those reasons.
"HAVING A SENSE OF CONTROL" about your weight. Hmm, and where does needing that sense of control come from? I'm sure there are other areas in your life that you desire control. Control is an attempt at a safety self-grab. I'll tell you, that when you turn it towards yourself its destructive. It is why I am having a relapse right now. I made a big old list of the things I am currently trying to control. Then just like @Baseball65 suggests, I made another column beside that one for each point and wrote down where that ticks a box for my triggers - and then beside that, what emotions those triggers (or personality traits) bring up, and often bring up repeatedly. Then I reflect on where in my life this has come from.
It's recognizing those patterns and being willing to let go of them. Why on earth hang on to something so tightly that is not serving you? Eg. recently Baseball mentioned he was mad at his dog. Did he give up the dog? NO of course not. He loves the dog and holds it dearly to his heart however...at the very same time in the very same space, there are notions surrounding the dog: responsibility, money, giving up some of his "freedom" time to spend with his dog that triggers him and he knows there is some deep rage. Then Baseball decides which of the unnecessary things surrounding this whole scenario that he no longer wants to participate in. The dog is a non-negotiable, that stays. His attachment to freedom, his distaste of responsibility? That's gotta go. It's incompatable with his true wants.

Can you use that method to look at the running?
Can you see that your use of exercise as a means of control may not be helping your mental health in the long term? What parts of running might be of help to your mental health?
So you want to control your weight? What about the idea of weight triggers you? Is there another way you can frame these ideas without causing massive self-pressure, judgement, and whatever else this brings up for you? It's not the tracking macros, and your concern about what people "around here frown upon" is really something else to delve into.
Why are you so worried about what people here think and how do you use those ideas to judge yourself (and others).

"I accept the blame for that. I guess I've kind of decided I'm stuck like this because there are aspects of myself I just don't want to change" - this is resisting. RESISTING resisting.ReSiStINg! Its not that we are "frowning" upon practices, its that we absolutely see what is going on for you. But when we are in the middle of TMS-ing hard, we can't see this for ourselves. We cling on to stuff that isn't serving us because our TMS brain has made us think that these things equate some sort of safety.

The fact is, you simply aren't ready to go there yet. I think you've felt this for awhile and that is absolutely OK. Sometimes our brain needs to TMS for awhile before we can see the patterns and decide to stop them. I say all of the above because I've experienced all of the above.

 

I guess I know some of those answers, I have just struggled to reframe them. Hardcore exercise (and I mean like before when I was doing 3+ hours a day) came around the time I finally said enough to my ex husband after a violent incident and I decided I needed to be strong enough to handle myself. I backed down from that after my first potential encounter with TMS (didn't know about then) and my hamstring tendinopathy diagnosis. Had no choice because my leg hurt too much to continue at that rate. So my workouts are much more reasonable now, cut back running to a healthier level over the last couple of years and weight training, allowing myself a rest day. But the pain is still worsening/spreading despite those concessions. I think the problem is, the other parts of working out (weighing, tracking) aren't things I don't want to participate in any longer. I still want to. But that may be something I have to re-examine.

And yes, I focus too much on what others think. Always have. I've started to step away more like I've had to do recently with some other interactions (not here) rather than concern myself with it as much because I spend too much time apologizing for who I am.

I've talked with Baseball pretty extensively, he's aware of some of what I have going on. I've worked on his practice of focusing on rage but it's not something I can do while I'm exercising, as much as I have tried.

 

GOOD JOB @Rusty Red
So let me string this together.
"backing down" from feeling like you had to be strong enough to be stronger than a human who was violent against you. I'm sure there was much more than physical violence, because it usually never ends up "just" being physical.
So you "gave up" because of TMS.
What did you "give up" - a sense of control that working out 3 hrs. plus a day gave you.
Control over someone that it wasn't your job to control. Of course you felt you had to, because it was your sense of self and mortal safety you were defending! But in the long term, only he could save himself - save the person you saw and fell in love with, the person you cared about deeply at perhaps at one point did offer you some sort of sense of safety and security.
But then that all ended up being upside down.
And you felt you had to be in charge of it because who the hell else was coming to your rescue? He sure wasn't and he wasn't coming to his own rescue either.
Your workouts might be "more reasonable" (whatever that means)
But what about the self-pressure? The motivation? The internal and perhaps unseen or unacknowledged self-blame? Or even just that feeling of "what the hell do I do now?". I have NEVER been exactly in your position, but I have have men repeatedly attempt to overpower me, mentally, physically or sexually all of my life. Even someone looking at me sideways, saying innuendos etc. is a trigger for me because it is absolutely meant to make us feel small, and not in control. It's meant for someone else to feel bigger, more important and not only in control of themselves but over others.
That is just a hint at where your desire for control comes from. It's relevant, it's founded but you are safe now and it's not needed to the extent in which you still feel you need to employ it, and it never has to be turned towards yourself.
It's not really about the "working out" - it's about all the baggage around it. So the idea that you have to give up on working out isn't that at all. It's giving up on yourself.
And you are absolutely not, and never have given up on you! We see this kick ass warrior woman who's being going out there and beating herself into the ground physically because she can't see that warrior. Even a warrior needs to take a break. That's not quitting and it's not giving up. It's resting.
Resting makes us feel vulnerable, and the idea of closing your eyes, and opening up to this idea of being off line a bit, to letting go and loosening up and relaxing is probably really scary. You've had to be on your toes merely to defend your existence for so long. No wonder your body is tired.

"focusing too much on what others think" is a whole lot of self blame all rolled up on a lot of self criticism. You are simply sensitive in nature. And someone who is sensitive in nature who trusted someone with their life and happiness and in turn was treated like crap. For your own sense of security you scan and worry what others think because if they think "bad" things or whatever it is that set this x-off, you can avoid it happening again. This is probably a repeat for much of your life (oh, heck, I know it is for mine!). Nichole delves deeply into this in her latest podcast from last Friday, where her guest identifies as a very sensitive person. There is NOTHING about this you need to change except taking it all personally. Because the taking it personally is just more of those anxious thoughts that aren't true. People spout a lot of crap that isn't true (Gahhhh, look at the world today!). Claire Weekes "floating" method is great for this (and so much easier than running for 3 hours a day).

Focusing on rage is not something you can do while exercising - oh, UMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ... then what does exercise actually help you do? Is is REALLY helping your anxiety, or is it helping you to distract yourself from emotion?

My sense is that you've really tied a lot of meaning to exercise that simply doesn't need to be there, and it's stealing your joy from it all.

How about trying some other techniques to help your anxiety and let you begin to feel into the emotions safely. Sometime you haven't much tried in the past and something that is not tied to the above situation of abuse and trauma. You need to find something with no strings attach and begin to forge a sense of safety around it separate from everything else.

Yes, that means doing things like trying meditation - which is a real challenge, but just beginning by doing some breathing is a great way to lean into it. Just 10 minutes a day. If you can't close your eyes, just unfocus them in a space that feels safe. Just sit. When your mind races, say "thoughts" and focus only on your breath in and out your nose. Nothing else at all.
I'll tell you that this was HARD for me to start. My nose would itch, I'd have to suddenly go to the bathroom or get cold etc. that is all resistance. Smile at your mind trying hard to protect you and tell yourself you'll just sit for 10 minutes.
Try this, and try it for months. A few days, a week, a month might not show progress. You are teaching a very fearful and protective being to trust the process and they have had so much reason not to trust.
If that isn't your bag, try pendulation. This is sensing into your body a place you feel sensation - not your strongest symptoms but somewhere that you tend to wish you didn't feel so much. Then find another place that feels just fine. Notice things about your body like a buzz of energy, the temperature of air on skin, the feeling of sitting on your bottom, the feel of feet on the floor, and linger on those things a few seconds. Then feel the not so great sensation and make a circle around it. Does it have a shape? Can you make the shape larger? Now sense the "better" place you chose and do the same thing. On this side, can you make the shape ungulate? Can you make it change temperature? have fun with it. Now back to the no so great place and see if you can make that ungulate or change temperature. Does it have a color or some other specific qualities. Just go back and forth for about 10 minutes. This is kind of fun and it's weird and a strange challenge. The goal is not to really focus on a symptom area that is truly annoying. It's really just to focus your mind on the process for 10 minutes out of your day.

There are lots of other methods, but these keep your body quiet, and keep your mind focused and help you begin to forge a sense of safety in being still in both body and mind. To focus you on your body to be "embodied" and be present in your body. You clearly stated that running actually dis-embodies you (that will change over time!) and that is just another safety mechanism. You want to begin to teach your mind and body that you are safe. That you can take care of both your mind and body without having to exert harsh control, or feel the outside world is out to get you. That you are ok just as you are.
I think you understand much of your rage. Now you need to be OK with having those feelings, with letting them flow though you. You need to give yourself opportunities to let this happen when it wants to. No controlling when it should or if it will happen. Eventually it will.

 

Thank you for this and the suggestions. I have been meditating most nights for the past few months, since I initially started Nicole's work.....I guess it was about four months ago but lost track. I can try some of the other suggestions as well.

In regards to rest, I was really hoping not to miss my favorite race again this year like I had to do last year due to symptoms and I've been trying to train for it, but I guess part of acceptance will be giving that up.