Always a symptom ?

K

KayJay

Newcomer
Hi , I joined this forum today and have posted my story for more info .

So basically , I may have found relief from IBS through understanding and believing Dr Sarno’s works on TMS . I am absolutely thankful to be enjoying being free from those pains but I am now feeling the following :
1. Still a bit doubtful – I have only been pain free for a few weeks , let’s see how I cope if stress comes my way !! It seems premature to celebrate .
2. Wanting to explore TMS further to see if I can have similar success with reducing frequent urination at night .
3. But I am totally confused on a fundamental point – as per Dr Sarno , there will always be a TMS symptom (Symptom Imperative) ? …. so there is no point in me tackling the prostate/peeing because it will just be replaced by something else ? …. like maybe the dreaded IBS pains again ?

I guess my overall feeling is that I did good with believing TMS – it seems to have stopped the IBS pains …. I should just let things be as they are , live with the sleep disturbances from having to pee , I should keep listening to Sarno from time to time , no need to get into any deeper recovery program because it will never be possible anyhow to be completely free of some symptom or another ?? … is that true ??

I would be really appreciative if someone can please point me in the right direction .
 
Hi @KayJay, welcome to the forum and also welcome to your new life.

I could easily write about this particular topic at great length, but I just listened to a recent episode of Nicole Sachs' podcast which I've been meaning to post, and I want to title my thread "This 57-minute podcast will tell you everything you need to know". Nicole and her guest will introduce the subtleties of doing this work, and of growing your self-management skills and tools to get back your life.

Nicole Sachs worked side by side with Dr Sarno when she was starting her career, and is one of my favorite resources for continuing to expand on his original work.

Give it a listen, and see what you think, then we can have an informed discussion!
https://www.yourbreakawake.com/podcasts/the-cure-for-chronic-pain-with-nicole-sachs-lcsw-2/episodes/2148886736 (S3 E 109: Symptom-Free For Years: Best Practices for Getting and Staying Well with Gigi Cockell)
 
Hi @KayJay,

Welcome to the forum.

I would say that it is true that people when they are doing TMS work often experience symptom imperative and/or extinction burst (if you don't already know about the latter see https://www.tmswiki.org/forum/threads/day-19-extinction-bursts.16651/ (New Program - Day 19: Extinction Bursts) for an explanation).

But, if you continue to do TMS work (e.g. like the free SEP course, here on this Wiki at: https://www.tmswiki.org/ppd/Structured_Educational_Program (Structured Educational Program)) you could get yourself totally free from all symptoms that are TMS -- it's not a done deal or foregone conclusion that you are bound to suffer profound symptoms of one sort or another for the rest of your life just because your brain has a tendency to and a history of TMSing.

During the process of doing TMS work (like the SEP) towards full recovery, TMSers can find themselves playing 'whack-a-mole' with symptoms - that is, with new symptoms popping up and/or old symptoms returning randomly, because the TMSing brain can be unpredictable and it more than tends not to give up easily... but with persistence in doing TMS work, the brain can give up creating profound TMS symptoms altogether.

While I was typing this to you, I see that @JanAtheCPA posted above with her suggestion for you to listen to a particular podcast; would recommend you do that.
 
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Many thanks for the replies !
Jan - I will certainly listen to that podcast tomorrow and let you know my thoughts .
Bloodmoon - your whack-a-mole is spot on with describing what I had been thinking !… to the point where I was prepared to just cash in my chips - take the loss of IBS symptoms as a ‘win’ and accept the lesser inconvenience of frequent peeing as the symptom to live with …. rather than trying to deal with that and risk getting something else . Clearly there is still uch for me to learn .
 
JanAtheCPA said:
Hi @KayJay, welcome to the forum and also welcome to your new life.

I could easily write about this particular topic at great length, but I just listened to a recent episode of Nicole Sachs' podcast which I've been meaning to post, and I want to title my thread "This 57-minute podcast will tell you everything you need to know". Nicole and her guest will introduce the subtleties of doing this work, and of growing your self-management skills and tools to get back your life.

Nicole Sachs worked side by side with Dr Sarno when she was starting her career, and is one of my favorite resources for continuing to expand on his original work.

Give it a listen, and see what you think, then we can have an informed discussion!
https://www.yourbreakawake.com/podcasts/the-cure-for-chronic-pain-with-nicole-sachs-lcsw-2/episodes/2148886736 (S3 E 109: Symptom-Free For Years: Best Practices for Getting and Staying Well with Gigi Cockell)
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Jan , I listened to the podcast this morning , it was very helpful and I thank you for leading me to Nicole Sachs – she will be another resource for me !

There were many good points to take away , the most important being that she and Gigi have given me a resounding answer to the original question which I brought here yesterday about whether there will always be a symptom . Clearly their experiences say no .

The necessity for total belief was highlighted and I am greatly encouraged because from the moment I first listened to Dr Sarno’s audiobook , I immediately took everything on board , it all clicked and since then I have not had any doubt that this stuff works . I echo Nicole’s thoughts in the podcast that I am going to be fine .

I still have my doubts that the IBS pains will stay away , I guess that it is just too soon and I am still thinking that this has been too easy , too good to be true !

But the podcast has made me understand that I should not fear their return as long as I continue to believe , any return of the pains should be short lived , they will pass .

I did pick up a new ‘worry’ from the podcast when hearing that those pains may start to be replaced with strong emotions and that you will likely have one or the other …. that sounds a bit ominous , TBH .

Anyhow , maybe that stage is somewhat down the line for me – I still have other symptoms to occupy my life , like the overactive bladder and some tinnutis …. I suppose that although they are not pains as-such , they are still TMS related and I can explore ways to minimise or even get rid of them as well ? When Nicole and Gigi talk about being able to be ‘pain-free’ , does that mean also being able to be free of unwanted symptoms like an over-active bladder ?
 
One thing that I'd like to add is what Howard Schubbiner says about everybody being bound to have some sort of TMS sometime in their lives. It's just something that might happen, specially in the stressfull lifestyle the modern world lives. So having had it or not, it might appear or reappear down the road. The big difference is that you'll have the neuroplasticity suited for the task of retriggering itself.
 
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“When Nicole and Gigi talk about being able to be ‘pain-free’ , does that mean also being able to be free of unwanted symptoms like an over-active bladder ?”

yes! Earlier in the podcast, Nicole clarifies they mean any symptom.

Overactive bladder and tinnitus are two symptoms that come and go for me. They are common symptoms of anxiety, so just notice them and notice other anxiety symptoms you may have and not recognize like a busy mind, being tired or restless, body temperature changes..could be anything but just notice with curiosity and try just being with feelings, thoughts or sensations. Learning to be with things without judging them as good or bad states is a great beginning. Consider that you might be experiencing deep emotions that you also tend to judge or not recognize you are having.
 
KayJay said:
I did pick up a new ‘worry’ from the podcast when hearing that those pains may start to be replaced with strong emotions and that you will likely have one or the other …. that sounds a bit ominous , TBH .
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Dr Sarno said words to the effect of that in giving us TMS symptoms the brain is distracting us from experiencing strong emotions, e.g. anger/rage, that it fears and considers may be too dangerous for us to feel and/or display to others. It therefore figures that when we do TMS work and recognise our symptoms as being TMS and then symptoms lessen or disappear, emotions are likely to rise to the surface and that they will need to be felt. Feeling our emotions shows our brain that those emotions are safe to experience. So, your job is to greet those emotions and deal with any anxiety as @Cactusflower describes. Like you and @Cactusflower, I too have experienced overactive bladder and tinnitus and agree with her that they are common symptoms of anxiety. I experienced those symptoms and anxiety as part of my TMS (along with IBS).
KayJay said:
the most important being that she and Gigi have given me a resounding answer to the original question which I brought here yesterday about whether there will always be a symptom . Clearly their experiences say no.
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Yep, as I wrote above, it's not a done deal or foregone conclusion that you are bound to suffer profound symptoms of one sort or another for the rest of your life just because your brain has a tendency to and a history of TMSing.
 
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Feduccini - thanks so much - so Schubbiner is another name for me to be Googling !

Cactusflower and Bloodmoon - thanks also , comforting assurances . You mention that you have experienced the bladder frequency and tinnitus coming and going - I would see that as a good result if I can get to that point because they have been with me 24/7 for a number of years . I guess that I got used to them , they are not painful , just a PITA . Anyhow , the last two years I have been mostly occupied with the painful IBS symptoms , they have recently vanished thanks to DR Sarno …. so I am now wondering if I could also look at the possibility of reducing the symptoms with peeing and tinnutis . It would be great to get better sleep .

I now see what you mean about I should feel emotions . Normally I am pretty emotionless , strangely enough just today with seeing you good folk taking the time to reply and help me , I am getting teary-eyed .

Thank you .
 
Dr. Sarno’s #1 was think psychological and to accept these emotions -even if you’ve repressed them in the past. Accept anger and rage you may not feel, acknowledge it is most likely there as well as other “negative” emotions (shame, sadness and guilt often accompany). If you did not notice these specific passages in his books, go back and have a look. Also note his 12 daily reminders (easy to find in a google search) and look for his slightly longer passages on these in his books. Very helpful!
 
Cactusflower said:
Dr. Sarno’s #1 was think psychological and to accept these emotions -even if you’ve repressed them in the past. Accept anger and rage you may not feel, acknowledge it is most likely there as well as other “negative” emotions (shame, sadness and guilt often accompany). If you did not notice these specific passages in his books, go back and have a look. Also note his 12 daily reminders (easy to find in a google search) and look for his slightly longer passages on these in his books. Very helpful!
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My intro to Dr Sarno has been the audiobooks , I really enjoyed being able to close my eyes and savour his words . But seems that the books have more info and a better media for more serious study , so I will order them as well .
 
KayJay said:
My intro to Dr Sarno has been the audiobooks , I really enjoyed being able to close my eyes and savour his words . But seems that the books have more info and a better media for more serious study , so I will order them as well .
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Although hearing his voice is comforting, I think the in print books are absolutely necessary. Instructions he gives might only be one sentence...and when you are in the throes of difficult symptoms or anxiety, so easily overlooked. I overlooked many things of importance reading them several times. It wasn't until @Baseball65 started using his exact page quotes to point people to the most necessary of things, that I "got" it. Even the way Sarno worded things like "look to the source of irritation" was totally foreign to me. "Irritation" to me means mildly annoyed, not abject rage... sometimes it just takes looking at things from different angles, or "hearing" them in different ways to sink in.
 
KayJay said:
My intro to Dr Sarno has been the audiobooks , I really enjoyed being able to close my eyes and savour his words . But seems that the books have more info and a better media for more serious study , so I will order them as well .
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Same here--I love someone reading a story to me (am a huge fan of audiobooks) and I hear the Sarno words and phrases in a different way than a print book. I don't catch everything though when I'm listening--I tend to reflect and daydream and my mind wanders. That's alright for a novel or biography but not ok for me with listening to a Dr. Sarno (or other TMS-related) book.
All that reflection and jumping around can be great--I can make new discoveries. But I'm missing stuff that I might really need.

I love having the print books around. When I daydream or wander within a print book, I go right back to where I drifted off. Also, I can open to a page or passage right away. I've tried with audiobooks (keeping track of track times and chapter times, etc.) but I end up not doing it--it doesn't work.
The books are a touchstone and when I'm struggling, they come with me in the car and other places. I like re-reading the same passages (comforting), the feel of the book in my hands, the major wear of the book (a good reminder how long I've been at this).
 
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