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Steven Ozanich Recommended reading: Jung and Freud

Discussion in 'General Discussion Subforum' started by igloo, Dec 28, 2012.

  1. igloo

    igloo New Member

    Hi - im going on a holiday - my first for over 4 years since recently becoming pain free! I want to take a book with me. I've read the Great Pain Deception and the Mindbody Prescription, both of which refer to Freud and Jung. Can anyone recommend one of their books which may be an accessible introduction to their ideas - especially those relevant to TMS healing?

    Many thanks - and happy holidays!
     
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  2. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    The Interpretation of Dreams is absolutely essential reading because in it Freud introduced the concept of the Unconscious and the Oedipus complex. For the details, see this Wiki entry:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Interpretation_of_Dreams

    Jung differed from Freud in his concept of the "collective unconscious" and the "anima" and the "animus". Jung published a lot in a range of fields including of all things, alchemy (cf. Mysterium Conjunctionis). This Wiki entry will give you an overview of his life and works:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

    Hope this helps! You've got a bunch of titles to chose from, but I'd recommend starting with Freud's Interpretation of Dreams because it's absolutely essential to an understanding of the concept of the unconscious. It was first published on 4 November 1899 and continued to be revised by Freud throughout his life time.
     
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  3. veronica73

    veronica73 Well known member

    Congrats on being pain-free, igloo!
     
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  4. Eric "Herbie" Watson

    Eric "Herbie" Watson Beloved Grand Eagle


    yes-congradulations on your healing
    really anything with jung was always a read of wisdom
    and freud was awsome with emotions and understanding why we do what we do
     
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  5. Jilly

    Jilly Well known member

    YAY !! Many Congratulations on becoming pain free !! You give us all much great hope :)
     
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  6. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    I should have added above what everyone else is repeating: Congrats on become pain-free. That absolutely amazing. Now you can really take a nice vacation with both a free mind and a healthy body. That's the Classical ideal: Body and mind operating as one.
     
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  7. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    Yes, many congratulations on becoming pain free.

    In terms of reading original works by Freud and Jung, it can be wonderful to immerse oneself in a writer from that time period to the point where you really get their ideas, understand how they use language, and get a sense of their worldview. In my experience, it takes an awful lot of time, though, and it is easy to underestimate how much time it takes.

    On the other hand, it's much easier to get started using books about them, rather than reading the original sources. A Primer on Freudian Psychology is very readable and accessible while being mercifully short. It's a great way to get started, getting a global view, and you can always move on to the original sources afterward. There is also a book in the same series about Jung.

    In terms of an original (primary) text to read after or instead of a secondary text like the primers I mentioned, Morcomm's suggestion of Dreams makes a lot of sense. Another book to consider would be Studies On Hysteria, which I believe is the main book that Freud wrote that specifically covers TMS (though, as Sarno notes, he didn't completely understand it). It has a bunch of case histories in it (the psychoanalytic equivalent of our TMS success stories!), which I always find helpful. It includes, for example, the story of Anna O, who arguably is the first psychoanalytic patient. She invented the term "chimney sweeping" for the talking cure. Another case history of a TMSer is Dora.

    .... I have to say that I love the fact that now, rather than just physicians and psychologists reading the case histories of Freud's TMSer patients, it is today's TMSers as well. We get to read a the story of TMSers from more than 100 years ago, and we get to read Freud's analysis of the case.

    If you would like to get a sense of whether you'd be more interested in a primary text or a secondary source, the best thing might be to take a look at one of the primary sources and see how you like them. Luckily, another nonprofit called the Internet Archive has made quite a few old books available online for free. In particular, they have both Studies in Hysteria and The Interpretation of Dreams:
    alternative links:

    Hope this helps!
     
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  8. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Many thanks, Forest, for listing those primers in Freudian psychology. Launching into this murky labyrinth, you really do need a guide like Hermes, who led the souls of the departed through the underworld!

    Another title that occurred to me was the Norton centennial edition of Peter Gay's monumental biography, Freud: A Life for Our Time:

    http://www.amazon.com/Freud-Life-Time-Peter-Gay/dp/0393328619

    What Peter Gay does that's so important is reconciling the early Freud with the later Freud, who often didn't revise his early works to match his subsequent discoveries and thereby shape his psychoanalytic theories into a coherent unified whole. Freud is often criticized for his early work without taking into account what he thought as he matured. Gay's biography is a really dense read, but repays the time and effort. When my father died in March 1997, I entered our old house and found Gay's biography waiting on a shelf of new acquisitions in the family library. Despite our many conflicts, my late father had been thinking about my education right up to his last breath. Fathers and Sons!

    Good luck! This definitely isn't an easy read! Took me six months. Hope you've planned a long vacation.
     
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  9. igloo

    igloo New Member

    Thanks so much for your comments everyone - it's most helpful.

    Forest has a good point in that it's very intense to go head first into the original source material, so in the end I went for Basic Freud by Michael Kahn.
    http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Freud-P...entury/dp/046503716X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    As and when I've got the time, I may go for the Penguin Freud Reader which contains a selection of his key works:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Penguin-Reader-Modern-Classics-Translated/dp/0141187433

    Flights booked to Israel and Jordan - woo hoo!

    Have a happy and pain-free New Year everyone!
     
  10. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    Those look wonderful. I like that Basic Freud ties in a more modern perspective as well. It seems that Freudian psychoanalysis has been changing a great deal in the last 40 years, to the point where current practice feels to me to be quite different from the way that it was 60 years ago. For example, I've had the pleasure of working with Fran Sommer-Anderson and Eric Sherman through our mutual service to the PPD Association and through hearing them speak at the LA and NYU TMS conferences. Of Dr. Sarno's 4 "original psychologists" (Feinblatt, Sommer-Anderson, Sherman, and Evans), I would consider them the most psychoanalytic. Yet, when I look at Dr. Sommer-Anderson's chapter in "Bodies in Treatment," I certainly get the impression that psychoanalysis hasn't stood still since Freud. While I'm sure that there are deep connections, the language is certainly very different.

    Another example of this would be the existential therapy that Peter Zafirides practices; while it may seem very different from Freud's work, my understanding is that its practitioners view it as an extension of psychoanalytic thinking - just another tool in the toolbox or another lens through which to better understand the patient (Dr. Zafirides could, I'm sure, provide a much clearer explanation of this). As Irvin Yalom, one of Dr. Z's favorite thinkers writes in The Gift of Therapy (p. xvii):
    Freud was the creator of dynamic psychotherapy, so I take from this quote the idea that Yalom sees his work in existential psychotherapy as building on and extending Freud's work and the work of intervening thinkers (even though there are very clear differences).

    Bottom line: I like the way that Basic Freud ties in a contemporary Freudian perspective. I really hope that you'll keep us updated on how it goes. I'd really love to hear your thoughts on the books.

    By the way, speaking of Dr. Anderon and Dr. Sherman's work, I absolutely can't wait until their book is published:
    http://www.pathwaystopainrelief.com/
    I think that this will be the definitive resource on TMS from a contemporary psychoanalytic approach, and I can't wait to read it. The two of them were co-chairs of the NYU conference committee and are exploring the idea of an ongoing TMS/PPD psychoanalytic reading group/training program for therapists in NYC, but they are working hard on the book as well. My hunch is that they don't want to release it until it is really perfect.
     
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  11. Steve Ozanich

    Steve Ozanich TMS author and speaker

    It took me years to dig through Freud, and Jung's work. It's confusing and time consuming so I asked for help in the forums for much advice from college professors who taught Freud and Jung, Adler, Plato, Socrates, Kant, etc. The Collective Works for Freud and Jung were $1200 each. I agree that it's better to read the synoptic translations, unless you're fluent in German and can read the originals.

    My favorite of Jung's books, by far, was The Tavistock Lectures. People in America were begging him to come here and he was fascinated by the Pueblo Indians, so he came over. So he gave his first, or one of his first lectures in English. Those were insightful notes. People here were ready to challenge him on many fronts of what he was asserting across the ocean. But he had great answers for all of them, even embarrassed a few who tried to take him to the psychology woodshed. He defended himself with words.

    The psychology used in healing seems to be irrelevant, although Freud appears to be the name people associate with psychology, probably because sex was involved. Sex sells. He never created the term unconscious and he didn't invent the "talking cure." He observed how well Josef Breuer was doing with getting his patients to heal from simply talking about their concerns. As the first page of my book says, "We all need to be heard." Does anyone get how key that is to healing?

    Some people are heard through voicing opinions openly, others through writing, music, painting, dancing, singing, achievements, illness, pain, and even by killing innocent babies in kindergarten. These things are all outward expressions of what's going on deep within. If people are not being heard, they will turn outward in anger and to possibly harming others, or inward to possibly harming themselves, in what we call TMS. The TMS prevents the expression of the self, it is a protector to you, and to those around you. This harming of the self is not on purpose, it's just a way of coping through, for good people, when there's no outlet for self expression. Good people don't harm others, so we were taught early on, and persecuted by superego if we dared think otherwise. The pain is the unconscious talking where the person cannot or does not know how to. Pain is the virtual language of the unconscious. A good therapist can read that language and interpret it for the individual. El speako unconscio?

    We all need to have the position of our hearts known, to feel connected, avoiding isolation which is our biggest fear--and by yin yang default, our greatest enrager because panic is involved. As the good doctor so rightfully points out; anger is the social reaction to overcoming the source of the fear/panic. It seems that communication is the main ingredient in the soup of good health. So good health involves good communication.

    Jung even stated that it seemed as though the method (type of psychology used) wasn't important, but more important was that the person needed to feel comfortable with the therapist. If the person liked and trusted the therapist then the results were far more successful. So on the surface it looks like the hiring of a therapist is simply buying a best friend for the day. Healing from pain and illness often have some form of expression in them, beyond the awareness. That expression also includes new life goals where the inner self finally gets freed.

    Therapy is in essence the freeing of the self, both the good and the bad sides. It's the hiding of the inner self that causes pain and disease. I mentioned before that Ayurvedic science has some basic tenets and one is that people get sick and pained because they can't show their true faces. I agree completely. The stifling of true self, instinct, and impulses, etc., is the cause of TMS. These things that are being "stifled" are aspects of the person, and they are stifled because of familial or societal shame and guilt. Jung called this inferior side the shadow and we don't like that part of ourselves, it's shameful to us, so we hide it from the light. The shadow, as Jung declared, is "that part of ourselves which we have no desire to be." But in the denying of this part of self, we give it power over us to control us even more. So the truth does set us free. The truth is light of course.

    This is one reason I liked Alder's work because he wouldn't force people into "groups" because he felt they were all unique individuals. It's also true that no two people heal from TMS in the exact manner. I also believe in teleology so Alder's work is interesting. But you cannot discount that we are all cut from the same cloth, from the singularity of life (big bangs, creation; same thing), and so Jung's work is also true with his collective unconscious, archetypes, and shadows, etc.

    I never focused on one healing method or type. I liked Freud because he was easy to understand. I think Jung was more brilliant and hit more home runs than Freud with persona, shadow, collective unconscious, mandala, on and on..he was highly prolific. I read Karen Horney's work because I saw Dr. Sarno mention her. Her book Our Inner Conflicts was good. Before editing I had a subtitle called "Jung and Horney....my favorite group." But my editor said it may insult some people so we pulled it out in what I called "Jungus interuptus." We redacted all kinds of silly things I first put in there to keep the topic more serious. I prefer the silly to seriousness, obviously because silly breaks tension. It is a survival mechanism. But it's the humor that people often tell me they enjoy reading in GPD. Humor adds flavor to a vanilla life.

    So I personally never chose any type of method or famous psychotherapist to adhere to. To me, Freud, and Jung and Horney, were just literary devices to explain what was occurring within the psyche. That's all I felt people needed to know in order to heal. There's an inner undeveloped selfish self, and an outer core of persona and superego that is a false self that does what others want, and finally the ego that is the face presented to the world, which is a compromise between the needs of the self and those of the outer world. I never saw the need to break it down into more details of the psyche, very boring to read, so I just went straight to examples of things people run into in life, and how these "cores" of the person were interacting to create what the good doctor called "the divided mind."

    I think Dr. Zafirides is also onto something with existentialism. It is the problems we experience by simply existing. We live, so we don't want to die. In between is what we call life. How we deal with that life is up to us in the long run. But in the beginning there was darkness. That means we were pure, but had initial experiences that began to shape us in murkiness. These early experiences are the things most powerful in the formation of TMS later in life. The later half of life that Jung called the "cultural phase" is where we begin to pivot, and to look backward at those early years to see what the hell just happened there. He called this the midlife crisis but it can occur at any time after the 30s.

    We begin naive in the natural phase of life. Then at "crisis crunch time" from existential worries we begin to look inward--the hunt for the real self under all those layers of guilt. So we move from concern with the outer world to concern with our inner world. As a Christian I know that means "being born again of the spirit." Natural is of the flesh, cultural is of the spirit, or spirite.

    There's generally no right or wrong when it comes to therapy as long as the focus is on the person and not the monthly fee. All healing comes from within, but sometimes it takes an outsider to show us what's within. From there the person has the lightbulb moment and life begins, again.

    I'm fascinated by the ISTDP therapy of Davanloo. But they told me I needed some type of degree in therapy before I could get into the training. It's like that time I tried to be a Playboy photographer, they told me I couldn't just stand there, I needed a camera.

    This year is the year to heal. It takes understanding and a deep desire to heal. Anyone can do it. I never thought I could, but I did.

    Good luck,

    Steve
     
  12. gailnyc

    gailnyc Well known member

    Steve, thank you so much for this post. I have been worrying about not being able to buy into all of Dr. Sarno's Freudian stuff (especially his focus on rage), so it's good to read this.
     
  13. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    I have always found that the most effective therapists are ones that truly listen. The most important aspects of therapy is that we feel safe and secure in the session, not what specific technique, approach, or discipline the therapist is using. While I was still in chronic pain (before I learned about TMS) a number of doctors told me that I may have some sort of psychosomatic condition. While they were correct (even though they never mentioned TMS), I never sensed that they were listening to my struggles. I never felt that the physicians took the time to fully understand my case.

    When we have TMS we are, as Steve mentioned, hiding in our Jungian shadow. This was definitely true in my case. I thought, I couldn’t possibly have a psychosomatic condition. My doctors made everything seem so simple. “Your symptoms are just caused by stress”, they would say. But I kept thinking my case was not that simple. I was a special case, like the guy in the 1-800-contacts commercial.



    We have a natural tendency to feel that our symptoms are unique and the only way to reach people like this is to listen to what we are going through.

    Steve, as you mention, it all comes down to communication and our need to be heard. The best form of therapy is the one that helps a person feel like they are listened to and are understood. I posted about this awhile back in the thread: Psychotherapy and the importance of listening. In it I quote psychotherapist, Lewis Aron (who gave the opening remarks at the PPDA’s NYU conference) from his website

    To me this touches upon what is called the Dodo bird verdict, which states (through several research studies) that various therapeutic approaches and modalities are, when compared to each other, equally effective. What factors into a successful form of treatment is not whether you engaged in the best form of therapy, but rather if the therapist listened to you and was able to develop a connection to you. As Steve said, it looks like the hiring of a therapist is simply buying a best friend for the day. It all comes down to the ability to develop a relationship.

    I have been reading into Horney and she sounds to be quite the psychologist. I was particularly intrigued by her three categories: compliance (which probably contains some form of goodism in it), Aggression, and Detachment. Perfectionism appears to be a major part of the detachment category. The Wikipedia page about Horney stated in these regards:

    This sounds like it really does set some of the psychological backing to what Dr. Sarno started to see some 30 years later.
     
  14. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Interesting, Forest, how much what Horney has to say about the strategies of personal isolation that the "withdrawing neurotic" uses and those same strategies that Frank Kermode in his classic the Romantic Image (1957) says that Romantic, Symbolist and Modern artists use in order to find a synthesizing image or symbol that resolves their inner conflicts:

    http://www.amazon.com/Literature-Literary-Theory-Bundle-Routledge/dp/0415261872

    I remember that Kermode says that the vision the modern artist seeks in his solitary quest has a "price" - alienation, estrangement, despair and social isolation. But the symbolic image, when he finds it, can serve as a prophetic lighthouse that justifies the artist's solitary labor. It sounds as though the artist can find his way out of his problems by creating art, but a neurotic continues to be tortured by his social isolation because he never finds a way to communicate outside himself. Maybe that's the role of the therapist for those who cannot turn their art into a form of self-help therapy?

    It seems like the early history of modern art and the rise of psychoanalysis really swim in the same historical ocean? Lots of the same themes going on in both.

    "We poets in our youth begin in gladness. But thereof comes in the end despondency and madness."

    - William Wordsworth
     
  15. Karen

    Karen Peer Supporter

    Thanks so much for this. I searched for 'selfish' in the search box and found this post. I am just beginning to understand all the 'ego' stuff and how it relates to 'goodism'.
    It is so wonderful to be heard. Not many have the gift of truly listening.

    When the body starts screaming 'NO", and one can't walk, it's time to learn how to say that word and understand that it doesn't necessarily make one 'selfish'. I think I finally got 'heard' yesterday as I finally got the guts up to call them (my clients) and say, 'no'. It felt really, really good.

    I'm so happy for you igloo!! Congratulations!!
     
  16. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yes, just being kind to yourself is so difficult to learn when you've been a hard-driven over-achiever for years and years. I just turned 65 too, and it's really a gift instead of a curse if you look at it from the right perspective, an adult perspective that isn't determined by outmoded coping styles you learned before your 6th birthday! Growing up isn't such a big thing after all.
     
  17. njoy

    njoy aka Bugsy

    Inner Work by (Jungian) Robert Johnson is very accessible if you are interested in exploring your dreams and the wild and crazy guys who populate your psyche. SO much fun.
     
  18. Forest

    Forest Forum Administrator

    As Steve said, "We all need to be heard." It seems like finding a way to "communicate outside" ourselves can be very helpful in reducing inner tension. On an underlying level this seems to be connecting to some of the same ideas Eric Sherman writes about in Pathways when he talks about the need for people to put their feelings into words. If we cannot find a way to communicate how we feel, either through art, journaling, or therapy, we will never feel like we are heard.
     
  19. BruceMC

    BruceMC Beloved Grand Eagle

    Yes, Forest, it seems like putting those repressed feelings and traumatic memories "into words" is one way of reprogramming your neural pathways so they don't keep replaying TMS pain messages over and over ad infinitum ad nauseum. I would suggest that by putting those repressed feelings into words you're actually changing the biochemistry of your gray matter in such a way that TMS becomes inoperative. This is much different than recovering some early trauma and having a primal scream or birthing experience where you relive the bad feelings. Such therapies can confirm the existence of the unconscious mind of course but they can reinforce those negative feelings and traumatic memories without really transforming them and perhaps even transcending them. The SEP and Howard Schubiner's Unlearn Your Pain workbook both confirm this.
     

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